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View Full Version : Whyte v King: the long-term outlook



Number_Eight
20-04-2011, 16:18
As we ponder the future of Rangers and wonder how the ownership issue will resolve itself, maybe we should think about further down the road and not just the short term, important though it is.

Dave King appears to have been keen on owning the club for a long time, but complications in his business life have inhibited his ambitions.

If he wins the day, the ownership of the club, I imagine, will not change hands again for the foreseeable future. That worries me. I don't want another twenty-year plus tenure for an unelected new owner.

If Whyte wins the day, along with Ellis, I believe he will do what he has to do and then exit the scene. Unless his ego comes into play and he develops an addiction to the limelight, I believe he will move on after five years or so. I said as much about Ellis when he was in the frame.

We can't be sure of the intentions of the ownership contenders; we can only guess, but I'm inclined to favour a man who will come in, fix the problem, plot a new course and then leave.

I don't see King as that man. Whyte, however, just might be.

Do we really want a new owner who will stay in the job indefinitely, perhaps for as long as SDM?

I know I don't.

RangersForMe
20-04-2011, 16:25
If King is involved with Paul Murray then from what I've read, which isn't any more than has been posted on here, he is looking to raise capital presumably from the sale of shares and therefore the majority ownership of Rangers will be in the hands of more than one or two people.

That seems safer to me that the Whyte deal, if it's as simple as I have read it?

lucanblue
20-04-2011, 16:28
At least King is a guaranteed dyed in the wool bluenose.

We hardly know anything about the other guy.

I wouldn't imagine King would hang on beyond his sell by date if it was harming Rangers.

rbloyal
20-04-2011, 16:31
I see Whyte as our Fergus Mcann which cant be a bad thing.

Pumbas_Nakasak
20-04-2011, 16:31
Fans on the outside lookin in.

omegaman
20-04-2011, 16:34
At least King is a guaranteed dyed in the wool bluenose.

We hardly know anything about the other guy.

I wouldn't imagine King would hang on beyond his sell by date if it was harming Rangers.

But he's been more than happy to watch the club sink to its knees while he thought he could get it on the cheap.

Blue Sea Of Ibrox
20-04-2011, 16:34
ive always hoped king would sort out his own issues and buy the club. i know thats not exactly whats happening at the moment but id prefer him to whyte personally.

whatever people say about king he still has more money than whyte will ever have and he is a rangers fan who has invested heavily in us before.

Jaws II
20-04-2011, 16:37
i am very uneasy about king, and i feel as mentioned whyte may be more of a mccann type figure.

strider
20-04-2011, 16:54
Why favour someone who would leave when the hard work of moving in the new direction is about to begin? Any major changes at Rangers at just about any level are going to take more than 5 years to fix.

If Whyte was to come in, sort things out, give us a different or even enhanced sense of ambition, then sell up, can we be sure the next guy would keep it going?

I don't know enough about either man or their plans for Rangers to know which I'd prefer. I'm very wary of where we'll end up, and absolutely hate the "anyone but Murray" feeling just now as people seem to expect a huge turnaround when he leaves, which I just don't see.

Number_Eight
20-04-2011, 17:14
Any new owner will already have an idea of his exit strategy - unless an exit isn't on the cards.

If a new owner is unpopular, less than successful, and unable to deal with the difficulties that Rangers face, we won't want him around indefinitely.

Just as most managers have a sell-by date, so too do chairman, and if either of us owned Rangers next, even although we are Rangers fans, not many people would want us dictating how the club is run for the next twenty years or more.

My concern is that there is no exit strategy with King.

In other words, history will repeat itself as his unpopularity grows, and with us powerless to remove him.

We really don't need an SDM Mk II scenario.

negri
20-04-2011, 17:19
But he's been more than happy to watch the club sink to its knees while he thought he could get it on the cheap.

hes a business man of course he wants to spend as little as possible .

paying a high price for the club means murray gets what he wants and leaves king with less to spend on the team . that said i wouldnt want us to be in administration before we are sold

omegaman
20-04-2011, 17:27
hes a business man of course he wants to spend as little as possible .

paying a high price for the club means murray gets what he wants and leaves king with less to spend on the team . that said i wouldnt want us to be in administration before we are sold

The point being that King would essentially stand back and watch the club suffer if it meant him saving a buck.

Is that the sort of 'fan' you want running the club?

negri
20-04-2011, 17:34
The point being that King would essentially stand back and watch the club suffer if it meant him saving a buck.

Is that the sort of 'fan' you want running the club?

its not his fault we are in the position we are .

less spent paying off lloyds and murray = more money for the club

Skoosh1873
20-04-2011, 17:40
its not his fault we are in the position we are .

less spent paying off lloyds and murray = more money for the club

Dave King has been on the board for a long time. He must accept some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs This is tempered slightly by the fact he has already put his hand in his pocket once.

deedle
20-04-2011, 17:49
I don't really follow the argument here.

What would be the point of Whyte buying the club and then leaving in a short time?

What concerns me most is that any deal for the club involving Whyte and Ellis would involve a property angle that left us in a situation akin to that of Man Utd and Liverpool.

It also seems from newspaper reports that Paul Murray and others are prepared to underwrite a share issue - on the basis that he doesn't think the Whyte proposals are good enough.

So, if enough fans bought these shares they'd have a hell of a bigger say than they would under Whyte/Ellis.

Jaws II
20-04-2011, 18:05
I don't really follow the argument here.

What would be the point of Whyte buying the club and then leaving in a short time?

What concerns me most is that any deal for the club involving Whyte and Ellis would involve a property angle that left us in a situation akin to that of Man Utd and Liverpool.

It also seems from newspaper reports that Paul Murray and others are prepared to underwrite a share issue - on the basis that he doesn't think the Whyte proposals are good enough.

So, if enough fans bought these shares they'd have a hell of a bigger say than they would under Whyte/Ellis.


What would stop whyte doing likewise.

deedle
20-04-2011, 18:13
What would stop whyte doing likewise.

Nothing, but as yet no-one has suggested he has any intention of doing this.

jicre
20-04-2011, 18:22
I don't really follow the argument here.

What would be the point of Whyte buying the club and then leaving in a short time?

What concerns me most is that any deal for the club involving Whyte and Ellis would involve a property angle that left us in a situation akin to that of Man Utd and Liverpool.

It also seems from newspaper reports that Paul Murray and others are prepared to underwrite a share issue - on the basis that he doesn't think the Whyte proposals are good enough.

So, if enough fans bought these shares they'd have a hell of a bigger say than they would under Whyte/Ellis.

Exactamundo and for that reason Mr King will do for me - Power To The People!

negri
20-04-2011, 18:30
Dave King has been on the board for a long time. He must accept some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs This is tempered slightly by the fact he has already put his hand in his pocket once.

with murray owning the majority of the shares and having the final say in everything whats king meant to have done ..


King joined Rangers Board of Director's as a non-executive director on 30 March 2000.[2] He then invested 20 million of his own fortune into the club.

pretty sure non executive directors dont get to say much. gets you a nice seat in the main stand though

Number_Eight
20-04-2011, 18:37
I don't really follow the argument here.

What would be the point of Whyte buying the club and then leaving in a short time?

What concerns me most is that any deal for the club involving Whyte and Ellis would involve a property angle that left us in a situation akin to that of Man Utd and Liverpool.

It also seems from newspaper reports that Paul Murray and others are prepared to underwrite a share issue - on the basis that he doesn't think the Whyte proposals are good enough.

So, if enough fans bought these shares they'd have a hell of a bigger say than they would under Whyte/Ellis.

It depends on what his motive is for buying the club, and five years with the wrong guy could feel like a long time. Just think of the last five.

Whyte appears to have a plan and he's spent the best part of a million pounds clearing the decks for a purchase.

He will almost certainly have factored in an end game to his involvement, and it won't be twenty years down the road.

That doesn't mean that he won't be here for six or seven, but he will have a set limit in which to achieve whatever it is he wants to achieve.

After that, having watched SDM stay at the party too long, he'll be on his way.

King, I suspect, has no real plan at all other than a very recent sketch on the back of a fag packet.

Who will be best for Rangers? I don't know, but I do know that I don't want another owner substantially outstaying his welcome, and I fear that King will do just that.

Do I know this for certain? No, but as the candidates don't publish manifestos or stand up and tell us what their intentions are, it is left to us to speculate as best we can.

I would prefer a clean break with the past and Whyte will provide that.

He may not be a success but there are no guarantees no matter who takes over, and that includes King.

WeeBud72
20-04-2011, 18:38
Just watched Dott v King easy for the wee bluenose :)

burnleybank8463
20-04-2011, 18:44
As a mere punter, I don't really know anything about these men personally.

What I can say though, is that looking on from the outside, I have formed the perception that Whyte has been professional and diligent in his approach.

deedle
20-04-2011, 18:52
As a mere punter, I don't really know anything about these men personally.

What I can say though, is that looking on from the outside, I have formed the perception that Whyte has been professional and diligent in his approach.

Does that include all the leaks to the media at opportune moments, including the latest threatening to storm off in the huff?


Tom English is David Murray's mouthpiece.

He's talking up Whyte and trashing people like Paul Murray and Dave King:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-Craig-Whyte39s-Rangers.6754890.jp



That should ring a few alarm bells.

Valley Bluenose
20-04-2011, 18:52
I don't really follow the argument here.

What would be the point of Whyte buying the club and then leaving in a short time?

What concerns me most is that any deal for the club involving Whyte and Ellis would involve a property angle that left us in a situation akin to that of Man Utd and Liverpool.

It also seems from newspaper reports that Paul Murray and others are prepared to underwrite a share issue - on the basis that he doesn't think the Whyte proposals are good enough.

So, if enough fans bought these shares they'd have a hell of a bigger say than they would under Whyte/Ellis.

Deedle - sadly I don't think there is either the will or the finance for large numbers of fans to take up these shares. I just don't see it happening the way you would like. It will be the select group of businessmen referred to in today's papers - not the 'real' fans.

burnleybank8463
20-04-2011, 19:11
Does that include all the leaks to the media at opportune moments, including the latest threatening to storm off in the huff?


Tom English is David Murray's mouthpiece.

He's talking up Whyte and trashing people like Paul Murray and Dave King:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-Craig-Whyte39s-Rangers.6754890.jp

That should ring a few alarm bells.
What I was really getting at what that I was impressed at the attention to detail Whyte had paid in undertaking the due diligence work. I also appreciated his lack of saying silly things in the press (which earlier suitors had done). On that front, I'm not too sure that I have noticed the leaks you seen to have noticed, although there may have been some (but certainly not as bad as I have noticed in the past.)

It is hard to say what all the motivations of all the parties are.

For instance, recently, I have been irked recently at what I percieved as an "attack piece" by an author on the RM site against AJ, in which his professionalism was criticised. If anything, AJ has come across as very professional, and as someone who is seeking to act in the best interests of Rangers. It is certainly not something I would criticise him about.

Link: http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/homepage/index.php/component/content/article/41-finances/1165-johnstons-p25m-qcobbled-togetherq-plan-is-rejected.html

I personally have no personal preference as to how the ownership of Rangers continues, other than seeing the "financially strongest" and most astute suitor take on ownership of the club.

THE PROFESSOR
20-04-2011, 19:17
At least King is a guaranteed dyed in the wool bluenose.

We hardly know anything about the other guy.

I wouldn't imagine King would hang on beyond his sell by date if it was harming Rangers.

As things stand, I'm a Whyte man, in more ways than one, although I'm naturally allied with a fellow product of private education as distinct from a habitue of that undoubtedly fine banlieu known as Chateau au lait, notwithstanding his little local difficulties in RSA.

I am very suspicious of King and his belated spoiling intervention. I suspect this is nothing more than a self-preservation manoeuvre.

King and others have presided woefully and culpably over the financial decline of Rangers, but nevertheless continued to enjoy the kudos and prestige associated with their titular status. I suspect as the Whyte acquisition was looking very close, King , Bain and other directors have become fearful for their positions i.e. a Whyte takeover would result in a complete clearout of the dead wood on the board.

Mr Whyte is a very bright and very rich venture capitalist, and I suspect he'll be ruthless in disposing of the duds, replacing them with his own men.

To my mind, self interest is at play here, rather than that of RFC, with the apparent late rubbishing of the Whyte bid.

deedle
20-04-2011, 19:28
As things stand, I'm a Whyte man, in more ways than one, although I'm naturally allied with a fellow product of private education as distinct from a habitue of that undoubtedly fine banlieu known as Chateau au lait, notwithstanding his little local difficulties in RSA.

I am very suspicious of King and his belated spoiling intervention. I suspect this is nothing more than a self-preservation manoeuvre.

King and others have presided woefully and culpably over the financial decline of Rangers, but nevertheless continued to enjoy the kudos and prestige associated with their titular status. I suspect as the Whyte acquisition was looking very close, King , Bain and other directors have become fearful for their positions i.e. a Whyte takeover would result in a complete clearout of the dead wood on the board.

Mr Whyte is a very bright and very rich venture capitalist, and I suspect he'll be ruthless in disposing of the duds, replacing them with his own men.

To my mind, self interest is at play here, rather than that of RFC, with the apparent late rubbishing of the Whyte bid.

What 'self interest'?

Of all the directors, only Bain is paid a significant salary.

Most are independently wealthy.

If it were shown that they were acting on behalf of themselves rather than shareholders they'd surely be open to legal action.

I don't think it matters a damn who went to a private school (although Martin Bain did).

King chipped in 20million and it wasn't him who presided over the way it was spent.

KBOTW
20-04-2011, 19:32
As it stands for me, Dave King has thrown his toys out of the pram at the prospect of someone (ANYONE) other than himself owning Rangers.

Whyte has obviously proven that he has 28,000,000 that much is crystal but now he's being forced to wait on the sidelines whilst Dave King gets his house in order - that for me isn't good enough. King has had ample time to find backers and make a bid of his own.

What if, Whyte turns round and walks, King can't get the funding together and we (it's unthinkable) lose the league - we are well and truly up shit creek. Johnston has a duty of care to Rangers as it stands currently, the number 1 aim has to be getting us away from the absentee landlord and lloyds anything else is quite frankly unacceptable

DaveDB
20-04-2011, 19:33
If Whyte had told the board that their jobs were safe you could've put your house on the board welcoming him with open arms. Their just trying to selfishly protect their interests.

Why watch Rangers get into the financial position that they're in and then as soon as someone wants to invest 50million in the club say "You know what, we should raise 25million instead"....stinks to the high heavens. Don't trust King at all, very sneaky.

RangersForMe
20-04-2011, 19:35
Does that include all the leaks to the media at opportune moments, including the latest threatening to storm off in the huff?


Tom English is David Murray's mouthpiece.

He's talking up Whyte and trashing people like Paul Murray and Dave King:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-Craig-Whyte39s-Rangers.6754890.jp



That should ring a few alarm bells.


First I've seen that article and by Christ it virtually calls Alistair Johnston an arsehole and I have no doubt that it came from David Murray.

Maybe David Leggat's blog, which suggests that Johnston and the takeover committee are scrutinising Murray's motives for selling to Whyte, is telling us that Johnston has got Murray in a corner over his public statement that he would only sell to benefit Rangers?

If there is a property angle for Whyte, Ellis and maybe SDM, then the dirtier this gets, the more chance the fans have of finding out where the truth is.

For the moment I'm more inclined to side with Johnston as financially he has nothing to gain.

cameross
20-04-2011, 20:04
Any new owner will already have an idea of his exit strategy - unless an exit isn't on the cards.

If a new owner is unpopular, less than successful, and unable to deal with the difficulties that Rangers face, we won't want him around indefinitely.

Just as most managers have a sell-by date, so too do chairman, and if either of us owned Rangers next, even although we are Rangers fans, not many people would want us dictating how the club is run for the next twenty years or more.

My concern is that there is no exit strategy with King.

In other words, history will repeat itself as his unpopularity grows, and with us powerless to remove him.





We really don't need an SDM Mk II scenario.

I dont agree Murray was never a Rangers fan King is and has already put 20million into the club with no return. My vote is with King and it is my opinion that there will be a few backers with King namely Park and Murray(Paul)

cameross
20-04-2011, 20:06
First I've seen that article and by Christ it virtually calls Alistair Johnston an arsehole and I have no doubt that it came from David Murray.

Maybe David Leggat's blog, which suggests that Johnston and the takeover committee are scrutinising Murray's motives for selling to Whyte, is telling us that Johnston has got Murray in a corner over his public statement that he would only sell to benefit Rangers?

If there is a property angle for Whyte, Ellis and maybe SDM, then the dirtier this gets, the more chance the fans have of finding out where the truth is.

For the moment I'm more inclined to side with Johnston as financially he has nothing to gain.

I really think that Johnston is an honest man. He has impressed me and I dont think that he has an axe to grind apart from being aRangers supporter

Number_Eight
20-04-2011, 20:09
I dont agree Murray was never a Rangers fan King is and has already put 20million into the club with no return. My vote is with King and it is my opinion that there will be a few backers with King namely Park and Murray(Paul)

You don't have a vote.

You are only a supporter.

We don't count in matters like this.

superallys_lovechild
20-04-2011, 20:11
I'm torn between the two to be honest. I'm not 100% sure i trust dave king after his SARS problems but we don't know loads of Craig Whyte.

Personally im slightly favouring Whyte as it is a fresh approach and hopefully will get rid of incompetent board and underperforming CEO.

Gaz