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Albertz Was King
30-11-2010, 14:15
Surely even Ronaldo knows that Messi is the greatest player on the planet and could go down as the greatest player to grace the beautiful game?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04qp23feCpe6B/x810.jpg

Ronaldo looking on at the great man in both admiration and jealousy.

The laffbot
30-11-2010, 14:16
Messi is a different class from ronaldo.

larrydavidloyal
30-11-2010, 14:17
I think Messi is already the greatest ever. Ronaldo has just never worked out it's a team game.

chucknorris
30-11-2010, 14:17
Even Ronaldo gets a semi watching Messi

krack182
30-11-2010, 14:17
Messi is here.






Ronaldo is down here.

crl00002
30-11-2010, 14:18
the 2 are not even close

krack182
30-11-2010, 14:18
I think Messi is already the greatest ever. Ronaldo has just never worked out it's a team game.

This^

He's so selfish and as long as he looks good, he doesn't care about the rest of the team.

BroomloanWATP
30-11-2010, 14:19
Scruffy wee no. 10 showed the perma-tanned pretender how to play the game last night.

Not a fan of hyperbole but he was exquisite.

Gardy Loyal
30-11-2010, 14:21
Messi showed him up last night.

mdnl
30-11-2010, 14:24
One of them is a 6 foot athlete with power and pace to burn.

The other is midget who is a genius.

subwayandloyal
30-11-2010, 14:24
Has ronaldo got a semi for him in that photo? I could watch Messi play every night of the week he really is that good.

clubdeckg
30-11-2010, 14:26
Ronaldo is a fantastic footballer, 2nd best in the world

WATP_RAB_WATP
30-11-2010, 14:27
Scruffy wee no. 10 showed the perma-tanned pretender how to play the game last night.

Not a fan of hyperbole but he was exquisite.

:agree:

Ronaldo too worried about how ripped he looks in his wee tight top :roll:

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 14:27
There can't be too many who still claim that Ronaldo is the better player? Surely not?

Leslie Crowther
30-11-2010, 14:28
Both are outstanding footballers and the debate over who is the best is rather puerile.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 14:28
thats a brilliant picture :clap:

the debate will rage on, but its not been a contest for about 2 years now. Ronaldos scoring record keeps him in the frame, but when push comes to shove its Messi who shines. Hes already got a load of goals and assists this season most of them against the top 8 clubs, no penalties either. Its a bit the opposite with Ronaldo.

Both brilliant players, for me only one can really challenge to be one of the all time greats

waders1977
30-11-2010, 14:29
Ronaldo is a fantastic footballer, 2nd best in the world

Not even close to 2nd best in the world, there were as least 4 better than him in the Barca team last night.

subwayandloyal
30-11-2010, 14:30
Both are outstanding footballers and the debate over who is the best is rather puerile.

While Ronaldo is indeed a great footballer he doesnt do it nearly as often or as well as messi so your right there is no debate.

thommo2006
30-11-2010, 14:30
Messi is a scruffy midget who eats and drinks shite yet he has a fantastic engine nd I love watching him, he is what football is about not cloggers trying to stiffle the life out of the game

1872
30-11-2010, 14:35
whilst he may admire Messi, i dont think there is any doubt as to what he is really looking at

http://i52.tinypic.com/23ie8g8.gif

Bluebritain
30-11-2010, 14:36
Great pic.

Cant make up my mind if it's a look of pure jealousy or if he wants to shag him.

spikerblue2000
30-11-2010, 14:38
what a real feast of football was put on display last night, really warmed one

Bullseye
30-11-2010, 14:41
Ronaldo is a show pony Messi is a footballer

WeeBud72
30-11-2010, 14:50
Surely even Ronaldo knows that Messi is the greatest player on the planet and could go down as the greatest player to grace the beautiful game?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04qp23feCpe6B/x810.jpg

Ronaldo looking on at the great man in both admiration and jealousy.

Dont be ridiculous its a still photo and he isn't even looking at him

I suppose thats Ronaldo sh-te now :roll:

urbanpics
30-11-2010, 14:58
One of them is a 6 foot athlete with power and pace to burn.

The other is midget who is a genius.

I'm a big fan of the krankies to bud!

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 15:01
Dont be ridiculous its a still photo and he isn't even looking at him

I suppose thats Ronaldo sh-te now :roll:


dahah justagrin. It still winds you up how good the wee man is doesnt it? >:)

ChicagoBear
30-11-2010, 15:01
and could go down as the greatest player to grace the beautiful game?


Unless he leads Argentina to the World Cup that will never happen. He was absolute wank in South Africa this summer.

The_Gub
30-11-2010, 15:03
There can't be too many who still claim that Ronaldo is the better player? Surely not?

Not only that, there are fuds out there in the scribbling game who think Rooney is as good as Messi.

aldo30
30-11-2010, 15:19
Ronaldo has scored what? 40 goals in 41 games for madrid? Messi around 100 in 150 games. Messi probably has better assists record....

Personally i think the two of them are brilliant to watch on their day, but Messi would just shade best player in the world to me..

As for being as good as Maradona.... Me thinks not, after seeing what he done when at Napoli.

All just my opinion though.

realger34
30-11-2010, 15:24
Ronaldo has scored what? 40 goals in 41 games for madrid? Messi around 100 in 150 games. Messi probably has better assists record....

Personally i think the two of them are brilliant to watch on their day, but Messi would just shade best player in the world to me..

As for being as good as Maradona.... Me thinks not, after seeing what he done when at Napoli.

All just my opinion though.

That's what i think as well

Maradona 86 was the best i have ever seen

Messi is world class no doubting that and the best around at the moment

LiviBear2
30-11-2010, 15:28
Ronaldo is a fantastic footballer, 2nd best in the world

He wasn't even the 2nd best player on the park last night.

sahrfc
30-11-2010, 15:35
in the photo it looks like messi's givin him the wanker sign lol :)

LiviBear2
30-11-2010, 15:35
Ronaldo has scored what? 40 goals in 41 games for madrid? Messi around 100 in 150 games. Messi probably has better assists record....

Personally i think the two of them are brilliant to watch on their day, but Messi would just shade best player in the world to me..

As for being as good as Maradona.... Me thinks not, after seeing what he done when at Napoli.

All just my opinion though.

Messi can do everything Ronaldo can do and more, but Ronaldo can't come close to matching Messi's contribution.

He's still a way off Maradonna's level but he's still only 23 and has a few world cups in him yet.

ChicagoBear
30-11-2010, 15:39
Messi can do everything Ronaldo can do and more, but Ronaldo can't come close to matching Messi's contribution.


Cant come close? really? why when people compare these two do people speak shite?

There's very little between both players and both will be the most important part of their sides chance for glory this year and beyond

LiviBear2
30-11-2010, 15:46
Cant come close? really? why when people compare these two do people speak shite?

There's very little between both players and both will be the most important part of their sides chance for glory this year and beyond

:D

Must be talking shite then, can't just agree to disagree no?

That says more about you than anything else mate;)

Allow me to point out why I think the way I do:

Messi is effective anywhere across the park; he can drop deep and link play, be that link up front, play the killer pass (after having set up the move initially), score scrappy goals, dribbling wonder goals and goals from set pieces.

I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't a player, he is, but he simply can't come close to matching the all round contribution Messi gives.

Facts speak for themselves. Do a bit of research into assists, passes completed, tackles etc etc and you'll see the evidence to back up what's already as plain as the nose on your face.

larrydavidloyal
30-11-2010, 15:46
Cant come close? really? why when people compare these two do people speak shite?

There's very little between both players and both will be the most important part of their sides chance for glory this year and beyond

Ronaldo doesn't have anywhere near the ability to bring team-mates into it that Messi does, it's not something that can be taught and it's not just because he's a selfish bastard.

What can Ronaldo do that Messi can't? Possibly consistently threaten in the air (for a midget Messi ain't too bad at that either. Endless lollipops that don't go anywhere. Take an unstoppable freekick once every 200 attempts. Even his main attribute that Messi shouldn't be able to compete with, his strength, is totally wasted because it takes far more for Messi to go dow than it does for Ronaldo to just give up and demand a freekick.

Ronaldo is a fantastic player who could be so much better, Messi is about as perfect a footballer as you could ever find.

derek5287
30-11-2010, 15:50
Unless he leads Argentina to the World Cup that will never happen. He was absolute wank in South Africa this summer.

Not having that argument. What if Messi was from Lithuania but had still been as good as he has the last 4/5 years. Would you still be saying he had to win the World Cup to be the best player ever? This argument only gets dragged into it cause what Maradona did for the same country in 86.

Judge it on ability. He is the best player in the world, has been for the last 2 years at least and if he keeps going the way he is, has every chance to be the best player ever to play the game.

charlie charlie
30-11-2010, 15:52
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04qp23feCpe6B/x810.jpg



"wee dicks not even got his socks pulled aw the way up and he's still bossin me"

craigthebear
30-11-2010, 15:53
For me, Ronaldo isn't even in the top 3 players.

Messi
Xavi
Iniesta
Ronaldo

ChicagoBear
30-11-2010, 16:00
Not having that argument. What if Messi was from Lithuania but had still been as good as he has the last 4/5 years. Would you still be saying he had to win the World Cup to be the best player ever? This argument only gets dragged into it cause what Maradona did for the same country in 86.

Judge it on ability. He is the best player in the world, has been for the last 2 years at least and if he keeps going the way he is, has every chance to be the best player ever to play the game.

Of course comparisons are going to be made. Maradona lead his country to the WC final twice and won it once, Messi, so far has struggled in the biggest stage of all.

Maradona also lead a pretty small side, to its only 2 league titles and a Uefa Cup within 4 seasons they also added a one of their 3 league cups in that time and a Supercoppa Italia. (if you add his two world cup finals this all happened in a 4 year period)

There's absolutely no doubt Messi is one of the best on the planet at the moment but he has a bit to go before he can be considered up their with the greatest of them all especially when you consider who he's doing it with, as his team mates will make things a lot easier in the grand scheme of things.

WeeBud72
30-11-2010, 16:00
Its shows how fickle some of you are

Arguing and trying to convince each other who is the best, I honestly couldn't give a f-ck who is the best both are great players and as for the clown who keeps mentioning justagrin what are you slevering about

larrydavidloyal
30-11-2010, 16:09
Its shows how fickle some of you are

Arguing and trying to convince each other who is the best, I honestly couldn't give a f-ck who is the best both are great players and as for the clown who keeps mentioning justagrin what are you slevering about

Not really. Almost all had come round by the time Messi inspired Barca to beat Utd 20 odd months ago. I think the majority who actually watched La Liga have known that Messi's been the best for about 3 years.

2 and a half years younger than Ronaldo as well. At this age Ronaldo was only just becoming a consistent threat for United.

Caldyblue v2
30-11-2010, 16:19
Last night you would struggle to count Ronaldo in the top 4 in the world never mind 2! Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Villa streets ahead. You could blame the Real midfield of crumbling but they are simply not as good. Unfortunately for Mourinho, in Spain he cannot adopt the tactic he used at Inter to combat Barca because the Madrid fans would not stand for it. In opening up he played right in to Barca's hands (or feet). Ronaldo is amazing but when the chips are down he turns in to a wee bitch quite frankly.

WeeBud72
30-11-2010, 16:24
Last night you would struggle to count Ronaldo in the top 4 in the world never mind 2! Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Villa streets ahead. You could blame the Real midfield of crumbling but they are simply not as good. Unfortunately for Mourinho, in Spain he cannot adopt the tactic he used at Inter to combat Barca because the Madrid fans would not stand for it. In opening up he played right in to Barca's hands (or feet). Ronaldo is amazing but when the chips are down he turns in to a wee bitch quite frankly.

Its got hee haw to do with individuals like Ronaldo its all about team work and Mourinho was correct Real didnt turn up

garymc1984
30-11-2010, 16:28
Jesus christ, the fawning over Barcelona on here is absolutely sickening.

Yes, they are the best team in the world.

Yes, Messi is the best player in the world.

But there seems to be grown men on here, Rangers supporters at that, chugging themselves silly over this mob.

Leuchars Loyal
30-11-2010, 16:34
Messi does have the luxury playing with better players and on their day just as good as each other they are better at different things as a footballer.

Emearg
30-11-2010, 16:34
I've said for a while Messi plays for Barcelona, Ronaldo plays for Ronaldo

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 16:36
Jesus christ, the fawning over Barcelona on here is absolutely sickening.

Yes, they are the best team in the world.

Yes, Messi is the best player in the world.

But there seems to be grown men on here, Rangers supporters at that, chugging themselves silly over this mob.

theres also grown men acting like hysterical women at the fact people are jizzing over last nights showpiece.

Had that been chelsea last night you'd have knocked one out all over your screen

Caldyblue v2
30-11-2010, 16:37
Its got hee haw to do with individuals like Ronaldo its all about team work and Mourinho was correct Real didnt turn up

You're right, the difference though, i thought quite notable is Messi's willingness to come deep and collect and chase down his man every time. When Ronaldo lost the ball or a pass didn't quite make it to him he visibly stopped completely.

The laffbot
30-11-2010, 16:37
I've said for a while Messi plays for Barcelona, Ronaldo plays for Real Madrid

Fixed that for you.

david91
30-11-2010, 16:45
I don't buy into the argument that Ronaldo doesn't play for the team.

I certainly don't think that any of his team-mates would.

garymc1984
30-11-2010, 16:46
theres also grown men acting like hysterical women at the fact people are jizzing over last nights showpiece.

Had that been chelsea last night you'd have knocked one out all over your screen

Spooge, I would have rightly been on here praising them to the hilt if that had been Chelsea.

But since last night, this place has went way over the top.

People questioning if Mourinho will ever recover from this :eek:

Ronaldo is shite, Barca are the greatest club side of all time. They aren't even European champions at this minute.

Now we have pictures of Ronaldo staring at Messi in admiration and jealousy :D Put the bellends away lads.

ShawlandsBIB
30-11-2010, 16:47
There can't be too many who still claim that Ronaldo is the better player? Surely not?

I still say if both play at their very very best Ronaldo is better. Only my opinion though.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 16:48
its just a bit of a laugh, AWK original post is anyway.

Ronaldo was p*sh and did throw a trantrum and disappear.

This is the biggest dent to Mourinhos ego thus far, and for it to happen against barca is huge, dont kid yourself.

That was one of the greatest team performances alot of us have seen, f*ck it was the best ive seen.

They were desperatley unlucky not to retain their CL last year.

They are a side who won all 6 competitions they played for a couple of years ago.



If thats not worth alot of fawning and praise then what is in football eh?

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 16:57
It didn't seem that long ago that Ronaldo was the best player on the planet, sure Messi is on fire at the moment, but I think Ronaldo would be phenomenal also in the Barca side.

When Sir Awex sold Ronaldo to Madrid he remarked that he was the best player in the world by a distance, it wasn't even close.

GregNPoR.
30-11-2010, 17:07
It didn't seem that long ago that Ronaldo was the best player on the planet, sure Messi is on fire at the moment, but I think Ronaldo would be phenomenal also in the Barca side.

When Sir Awex sold Ronaldo to Madrid he remarked that he was the best player in the world by a distance, it wasn't even close.

Sir Awex was wrong.

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 17:10
Sir Awex was wrong.

It's all about opinions, Messi is on fire and the best at the moment, who is to say that once Mourinho builds a settled Madrid side, Ronaldo won't be the best next year. Messi is phenomenal with Barcelona surrounded by the greatest midfielders and forwards in the world, he is nowhere near as effective for Argentina.

ChicagoBear
30-11-2010, 17:11
That was one of the greatest team performances alot of us have seen, f*ck it was the best ive seen.
\

Me thinks thats just a little OTT LTS, Barca were good but Real's defence was shocking and losing a couple of early goals in each half knocked the stuffing out of them.

AndBoydTapsItIn
30-11-2010, 18:11
Ronaldo is a fantastic footballer, 2nd best in the world

i'll go wae that, Ronaldo is brilliant in his own right but Messi is different class.

ibelieveinrangers
30-11-2010, 18:15
Messi is a true footballing genius, Ronaldo only cares about how HE looks on the pitch.

Messi is this century's Pele and Maradona rolled into one

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 18:16
It didn't seem that long ago that Ronaldo was the best player on the planet, sure Messi is on fire at the moment, but I think Ronaldo would be phenomenal also in the Barca side.

When Sir Awex sold Ronaldo to Madrid he remarked that he was the best player in the world by a distance, it wasn't even close.

hes been the best payer in the world for about 3 years now. What sir alex said goes for nothing seeing as he brought ronaldo through. last season Mourinho said Messi was better than Ronaldo, now hes at madrid and hes changed his tune. Its pointless looking at that.

May i also point out that he was superb in 2007/2008, but barca in general were rotten, he had long spells out injured and they generally fell apart when he wasnt in the team.

Also i dont think Ronaldo would fit that barca team atall, simple because hes not a team player, the holding the ball up to do stepovers, the constant long range shooting, its not their game.


Chicagobear we hear this every time they play well. Tell me a great performance where the other team defended brilliantly. Anytime they've ripped a team apart the usual folk (usually the ones who cant stand barca) jump in to talk about how shite the other team were.

Maradonas goal vs england is considered by many to be the greatest ever, but i personally think the defending was shite and there wasnt a serious challenge on hi, until shilton came out. Point is you can always go back and say defending was poor.

53easy
30-11-2010, 18:18
I thought Inter deserved to put them out over two legs last year although Barca are the obviously better side overall

Inter defensive performance while down to 10 men for 70 minutes was excellent in the second leg.

Johnny Cash
30-11-2010, 18:20
Messi couldnt score in the world cup though.

budabridgetonloyal
30-11-2010, 18:21
barca where a delight the other night put ronaldo and co in their place

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 18:29
Me thinks thats just a little OTT LTS, Barca were good but Real's defence was shocking and losing a couple of early goals in each half knocked the stuffing out of them.

If it wasnt the best performance ive ever seen, then it was the second best.

The best being from the same team against real madrid in the Bernebeu when they destroyed them 6-2.

I'm 26. They are the best side ive ever seen. They have been consistently awesome for 3 seasons now playing the most breathtaking football imagainable.

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 18:32
Messi couldnt score in the world cup though.

WHy is the world cup used as a stick to measure against?

He rips the pish out of teams every season in the champions league.

Its of a higher standard than the world cup is IMO.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 18:38
I thought Inter deserved to put them out over two legs last year although Barca are the obviously better side overall

Inter defensive performance while down to 10 men for 70 minutes was excellent in the second leg.

probably no shock to you that i thought barca deserved it.

2 pretty clear penalties denied at the san siro, Militos goal offside, and Bojans goal chopped off at the end of the second leg. Mourinho and Inter were incredibly lucky to make it through

Divemaster
30-11-2010, 18:38
Messi couldnt score in the world cup though.

Fishing? :confused:

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 18:41
its just a bit of a laugh, AWK original post is anyway.

Ronaldo was p*sh and did throw a trantrum and disappear.

This is the biggest dent to Mourinhos ego thus far, and for it to happen against barca is huge, dont kid yourself.

That was one of the greatest team performances alot of us have seen, f*ck it was the best ive seen.

They were desperatley unlucky not to retain their CL last year.

They are a side who won all 6 competitions they played for a couple of years ago.



If thats not worth alot of fawning and praise then what is in football eh?

A few things Spooge. Everyone on here knows about your love for Barca,so much so it appears you'd be better on someone elses forum. Are you actually a Bear?

Anyway,back to the main points. You seem to display a timmy like mentality when discussing Barca.
You say they were desperately unlucky not to retain their Champions League crown last season,yet fail to mention they were absolutely murdered by a very efficient Inter team in the san Siro,who sat in and then bludgeoned them on counter attacks that Barca couldn't live with.Yes,barca couldn't live with another team.
Barca then resorted to diving and cheating their way through the entire 90 mins in the Nou camp,getting an Inter player sent off and leaving them no option but to defend for the 90.
You also fail to mention the way that your beloved Barca had every decision going for them against Chelsea who absolutely dominated them at Stamford Bridge when they did go on to win "Their" Champs league.
I don't think i have seen a team as cheated as Chelsea were that night. 3 absolute stone wall penalties denied,and unlucky with many more chances. It should have been a mirror of what Barca did to Real last night. So while you think they were desperately unlucky not to win it last year,you must admit that they definitely didn't deserve to win it the year before?
I have often said this Barca team is the best team I have ever seen.The consistency of performance and the way they play the game is another level to anything I have ever seen,or probably will see.
I also believe Messi and Xavi to be the 2 best players I have ever seen,with Messi just shading it as he has a little more in his locker. Consistency wise though,it's very difficult to separate the two. That for me is why they both stand above Iniesta.
I appreciate your loyalty to your team,but a bit of honesty can be refreshing at times too.

53easy
30-11-2010, 18:46
probably no shock to you that i thought barca deserved it.

2 pretty clear penalties denied at the san siro, Militos goal offside, and Bojans goal chopped off at the end of the second leg. Mourinho and Inter were incredibly lucky to make it through

I thought Alves one wasn't a foul but the tackle on Pique was a clear penalty

The sending off in the second leg was quite harsh and it actually didn't really help Barca as Inter totally sat in and left very little space behind either fullback

Didn't Barca take 4/6 off Inter in the group stage last year?

Johnny Cash
30-11-2010, 18:46
Fishing? :confused:

Just stating a fact.:o

Are u a Barca diehard or something?

WeeBud72
30-11-2010, 18:48
Just stating a fact.:o

Are u a Barca diehard or something?

Does anybody give a flying f-ck about either team or player because I don't sometimes I wonder what the f-ck you are all arguing with each other for its as if some were tims or something

Johnny Cash
30-11-2010, 18:50
Does anybody give a flying f-ck about either team or player because I don't sometimes I wonder what the f-ck you are all arguing with each other for its as if some were tims or something

Only team i 'give a f.uck' about are The Rangers, Any other team is just there to observe and enjoy watching on the tele. Sometimes show respect to quality players or teams, but really dont give a fu.ck about them.;)

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 18:52
Fishing? :confused:

Why would he be fishing, he is stating fact, Messi never lived up to expectations for Argentina, in fact he has attracted a lot of (continued) criticism for his displays for his country.

In regards to the whole Barca being the best ever and it was the greatest display ever blah blah blah, as another poster pointed out, they are not even European Champions at this time, yet some muppets think they are 1 of the greatest sides ever.

Hilarious doesnt begin to describe it.:D

cazmasterflash
30-11-2010, 18:57
The two best players in the world without doubt but also a couple of diving b......s who would do anything to get a decision.

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 19:02
Why would he be fishing, he is stating fact, Messi never lived up to expectations for Argentina, in fact he has attracted a lot of (continued) criticism for his displays for his country.

In regards to the whole Barca being the best ever and it was the greatest display ever blah blah blah, as another poster pointed out, they are not even European Champions at this time, yet some muppets think they are 1 of the greatest sides ever.

Hilarious doesnt begin to describe it.:D

Messi maybe didn't live up to the expectations of some,but to say he was poor at the World Cup suggests you didn't see any of their games. He must have hit the woodwork about 4 times and was consistently Argentina's best player.
Another thing about this Maradona debate. Maradona never won the European Cup,which is the standout tournament in World football. Messi has won it twice.
Does that mean Messi is better?
Do you honestly think that the Man United's and Chelsea's and Inter Milan's of now aren't better than South Korea or Belgium in the 86 World Cup?

Also,Maradona was absolutely gash in both Italia 90 and in Spain 82,so does one good World Cup in 3 make him the best player ever on that stage?

This myth that he carried Argentina to that final in Italia 90 is hilarious. If you waqtch their games,he was consistently crap. It was a stout defence and Caniggia that got them through that World Cup. Maradona was the underachieving superstar who couldn't get himself off the coke long enough to turn in a decent performance.

To suggest Messi can never be better is a bit of a joke.

Phil Leotardo
30-11-2010, 19:04
The degree of fawning over Messi and Barcelona in general is stomach-churning.

cooprfc
30-11-2010, 19:23
Messi isn't even the best player at Barcelona.

garymc1984
30-11-2010, 19:33
The degree of fawning over Messi and Barcelona in general is stomach-churning.

I like this post a lot :D

A superb performance and victory indeed, but this led to best team/performance ever.

Almost timmy like :ninja:

The match thread will be well worth a bump when Real win La Liga this season.

Top_Cat
30-11-2010, 19:38
I've said for a while Messi plays for Barcelona, Ronaldo plays for Ronaldo

Yup, this ;)

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 19:42
Messi maybe didn't live up to the expectations of some,but to say he was poor at the World Cup suggests you didn't see any of their games. He must have hit the woodwork about 4 times and was consistently Argentina's best player.
Another thing about this Maradona debate. Maradona never won the European Cup,which is the standout tournament in World football. Messi has won it twice.
Does that mean Messi is better?
Do you honestly think that the Man United's and Chelsea's and Inter Milan's of now aren't better than South Korea or Belgium in the 86 World Cup?

Also,Maradona was absolutely gash in both Italia 90 and in Spain 82,so does one good World Cup in 3 make him the best player ever on that stage?

This myth that he carried Argentina to that final in Italia 90 is hilarious. If you waqtch their games,he was consistently crap. It was a stout defence and Caniggia that got them through that World Cup. Maradona was the underachieving superstar who couldn't get himself off the coke long enough to turn in a decent performance.

To suggest Messi can never be better is a bit of a joke.

Messi can never and will never be better than Maradona, FACT!

I did watch all of Argentinas games in the world cup, Messi played reasonably well, but hitting the woodwork a few times is a pathetic argument to him having a good world cup, why has he received huge amounts of criticism in his home country then? compare his world cup to Maradona in 86 and there is nothing to compare, if Messi lives to he is a thousand he will never eclipse Maradonas achievements on the World stage, and the world stage is how truly great players are judged. At this moment in time Messi wouldn't even make the top 10 players of all time.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 19:45
Does anybody give a flying f-ck about either team or player because I don't sometimes I wonder what the f-ck you are all arguing with each other for its as if some were tims or something

Man Ud don't have anything to do with Rangers either but it doesn't stop you sucking their boaby, does it? :D

garymc1984
30-11-2010, 19:46
you can stick yer Barcelona up yir arse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCvcoxNN5u0&feature=related

KilwinningBlue
30-11-2010, 19:47
Messi can never and will never be better than Maradona, FACT!

I did watch all of Argentinas games in the world cup, Messi played reasonably well, but hitting the woodwork a few times is a pathetic argument to him having a good world cup, why has he received huge amounts of criticism in his home country then? compare his world cup to Maradona in 86 and there is nothing to compare, if Messi lives to he is a thousand he will never eclipse Maradonas achievements on the World stage, and the world stage is how truly great players are judged. At this moment in time Messi wouldn't even make the top 10 players of all time.

Thats a ridiculous statement to make mate. He has 3 or 4 WC's to go. I'll bookmark this thread for 2022 :D

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 19:50
Messi can never and will never be better than Maradona, FACT!

I did watch all of Argentinas games in the world cup, Messi played reasonably well, but hitting the woodwork a few times is a pathetic argument to him having a good world cup, why has he received huge amounts of criticism in his home country then? compare his world cup to Maradona in 86 and there is nothing to compare, if Messi lives to he is a thousand he will never eclipse Maradonas achievements on the World stage, and the world stage is how truly great players are judged. At this moment in time Messi wouldn't even make the top 10 players of all time.

What a load of utter nonsene. What if Argentina win the next 3 world cups with him in the side? Still not good enough :roll:

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 19:54
Messi can never and will never be better than Maradona, FACT!

I did watch all of Argentinas games in the world cup, Messi played reasonably well, but hitting the woodwork a few times is a pathetic argument to him having a good world cup, why has he received huge amounts of criticism in his home country then? compare his world cup to Maradona in 86 and there is nothing to compare, if Messi lives to he is a thousand he will never eclipse Maradonas achievements on the World stage, and the world stage is how truly great players are judged. At this moment in time Messi wouldn't even make the top 10 players of all time.

Your name says it all.

Messi in a lot of people's eyes is better already.

Would you even think to consider answering any of the things I said about Maradona?

82 = Gash

90 = Gash

European Cup = Gash

And given your view on how players are judged,you are virtually admitting that Maradona could never ever be in the same league as Pele.

You do realise that messi is only 22 don't you? That makes your statemenmt all the more ludicrous.

And at 22,I don't think there is any doubt that Messi is better than Maradona was at that age.

And do you have all these Argentinian newspaper clippings and reports where everyone is slating him? Or do you have a shedload of Argentinian friends?
And would these be the same Argentinian people who would be slating Maradona for his management in the same World Cup?

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 19:56
Thats a ridiculous statement to make mate. He has 3 or 4 WC's to go. I'll bookmark this thread for 2022 :D

Messi has 2 world cups left in him, 1 were he will be considered to be at his peak. Can he honestly inspire (scoring incredible goals along the way) a half decent Argentina side to world cup glory like Maradona did in 86? Messi's Argentina side were far better than Maradonas side and he couldn't manage it. Not a chance will he ever equal Maradona.;)

Kingsparkger
30-11-2010, 20:00
I've always been on the fence with regards to Ronaldo v Messi. In the past I'd have claimed that they are two very different types of player.

That was until last night...

On that showing Messi is not only the better individual player but also the better team player.

Top_Cat
30-11-2010, 20:01
Ronaldo is also a poove ;)

Divemaster
30-11-2010, 20:03
Just stating a fact.:o

Are u a Barca diehard or something?

No, strange question.


Why would he be fishing, he is stating fact, Messi never lived up to expectations for Argentina, in fact he has attracted a lot of (continued) criticism for his displays for his country.

In regards to the whole Barca being the best ever and it was the greatest display ever blah blah blah, as another poster pointed out, they are not even European Champions at this time, yet some muppets think they are 1 of the greatest sides ever.

Hilarious doesnt begin to describe it.:D

So he was stating a fact for that sake of it? It felt like he was stating it to insinuate Ronaldo was better. Ronaldo scored against the mighty North Korea at the WC, his first goal for Portugal for two-years.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 20:03
Messi plays for Barcelona, Ronaldo plays for Ronaldo

Boabmeister
30-11-2010, 20:04
Not only that, there are fuds out there in the scribbling game who think Rooney is as good as Messi.

not outwith little england there aren't.:D

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 20:05
Your name says it all.

Messi in a lot of people's eyes is better already.

Would you even think to consider answering any of the things I said about Maradona?

82 = Gash

90 = Gash

European Cup = Gash

And given your view on how players are judged,you are virtually admitting that Maradona could never ever be in the same league as Pele.

You do realise that messi is only 22 don't you? That makes your statemenmt all the more ludicrous.

And at 22,I don't think there is any doubt that Messi is better than Maradona was at that age.

And do you have all these Argentinian newspaper clippings and reports where everyone is slating him? Or do you have a shedload of Argentinian friends?
And would these be the same Argentinian people who would be slating Maradona for his management in the same World Cup?

You do realise that Messi is not 22 don't you, you can't even get the little scrotes age right when constructing an argument.:D

As for Maradona being gash in 82 and 90, what a complete and utter nonsense statement, he was hugely instrumental in taking Argentina to the final in 90, they would never have got there without him, but forgetting all that for a moment, Maradona has played in 2 world cup finals and won 1 of them, his achievements in 86 are unparalleled, they are there for all to see and it says it all about your idiotic post that you airbrush 86 out of the equation and concentrate on 82 & 90. I ask again what has Messi done on the World Cup stage? the Argentina sides he is playing in are miles better than the sides Maradona is playing in, yet he has done the square root of f.eck all, sorry I forgot he hit the woodwork a few times:clap:

Do some digging regards criticism of Messi in Argentina, believe me its not difficult to find.

Divemaster
30-11-2010, 20:08
Messi couldnt score in the world cup though.
Messi scored in 2006 BTW ;)

Not a big fan of the whole WC argument though...it's just seven games. :ninja:

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 20:25
A few things Spooge. Everyone on here knows about your love for Barca,so much so it appears you'd be better on someone elses forum. Are you actually a Bear?

Anyway,back to the main points. You seem to display a timmy like mentality when discussing Barca.
You say they were desperately unlucky not to retain their Champions League crown last season,yet fail to mention they were absolutely murdered by a very efficient Inter team in the san Siro,who sat in and then bludgeoned them on counter attacks that Barca couldn't live with.Yes,barca couldn't live with another team.
Barca then resorted to diving and cheating their way through the entire 90 mins in the Nou camp,getting an Inter player sent off and leaving them no option but to defend for the 90.
You also fail to mention the way that your beloved Barca had every decision going for them against Chelsea who absolutely dominated them at Stamford Bridge when they did go on to win "Their" Champs league.
I don't think i have seen a team as cheated as Chelsea were that night. 3 absolute stone wall penalties denied,and unlucky with many more chances. It should have been a mirror of what Barca did to Real last night. So while you think they were desperately unlucky not to win it last year,you must admit that they definitely didn't deserve to win it the year before?
I have often said this Barca team is the best team I have ever seen.The consistency of performance and the way they play the game is another level to anything I have ever seen,or probably will see.
I also believe Messi and Xavi to be the 2 best players I have ever seen,with Messi just shading it as he has a little more in his locker. Consistency wise though,it's very difficult to separate the two. That for me is why they both stand above Iniesta.
I appreciate your loyalty to your team,but a bit of honesty can be refreshing at times too.

first line is unbelievably insulting.

i wont bother with the rest, dont care what you points are, you can shove them. May sound harsh, but no chance im responding to you after that

wjm796
30-11-2010, 20:30
The degree of fawning over Messi and Barcelona in general is stomach-churning.

Thank f*ck other people think this.:first:

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 20:33
I thought Alves one wasn't a foul but the tackle on Pique was a clear penalty

The sending off in the second leg was quite harsh and it actually didn't really help Barca as Inter totally sat in and left very little space behind either fullback

Didn't Barca take 4/6 off Inter in the group stage last year?

Btw i cant take away from the fact Inter had some superb last ditch defending in the two legs. Still think they were lucky and the referee blundered more in their favour


Does anybody give a flying f-ck about either team or player because I don't sometimes I wonder what the f-ck you are all arguing with each other for its as if some were tims or something

You give a **** enough to keep reading the threads and throwing your 2 cents in. You've also got a bit of an obsessions with Man Ure and their manager.

Can we cut the Maradona comparisons too? Im going to say it now, I dont think Maradona would ever be able to do what he did in the 80's in the modern era. He just wouldnt, looking at the pace of the game today and the way players have become finely tuned athletes, the fact the game is more defensive, theres no way he could kept that up coked out his face and what not. I know people who grew up in these eras dont ever want their players to be eclipsed, and he might not be eclipsed in terms of achievements, but people should at least be open minded. Ardilles claims the argentina side of 86 was actually a good side in spite of maradona being the spark that got them going, but what would he know eh.

The world cup is a 7 game tournament too, the importance put on it is absolutely laughable, guys like Miroslav Klose and Podolski look like world class players at the peak of their game in recent world cups. The CL is a higher level than it ffs.

Emearg
30-11-2010, 20:33
Messi plays for Barcelona, Ronaldo plays for Ronaldo
I've already said that. Get your own lines!

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 20:34
A few things Spooge. Everyone on here knows about your love for Barca,so much so it appears you'd be better on someone elses forum. Are you actually a Bear?

Anyway,back to the main points. You seem to display a timmy like mentality when discussing Barca.
You say they were desperately unlucky not to retain their Champions League crown last season,yet fail to mention they were absolutely murdered by a very efficient Inter team in the san Siro,who sat in and then bludgeoned them on counter attacks that Barca couldn't live with.Yes,barca couldn't live with another team.
Barca then resorted to diving and cheating their way through the entire 90 mins in the Nou camp,getting an Inter player sent off and leaving them no option but to defend for the 90.
You also fail to mention the way that your beloved Barca had every decision going for them against Chelsea who absolutely dominated them at Stamford Bridge when they did go on to win "Their" Champs league.
I don't think i have seen a team as cheated as Chelsea were that night. 3 absolute stone wall penalties denied,and unlucky with many more chances. It should have been a mirror of what Barca did to Real last night. So while you think they were desperately unlucky not to win it last year,you must admit that they definitely didn't deserve to win it the year before?
I have often said this Barca team is the best team I have ever seen.The consistency of performance and the way they play the game is another level to anything I have ever seen,or probably will see.
I also believe Messi and Xavi to be the 2 best players I have ever seen,with Messi just shading it as he has a little more in his locker. Consistency wise though,it's very difficult to separate the two. That for me is why they both stand above Iniesta.
I appreciate your loyalty to your team,but a bit of honesty can be refreshing at times too.
Complete and utter revisionism. I assume you had your eyes closed when Barca were denied a stonewall penalty in the opening minutes? The best team won over the two legs, the reaction to that game on here was and still is hysterical, especially when you consider the first leg in the Nou Camp when Chelsea were lucky not to have two men sent off and a penalty given against them.

blueman14
30-11-2010, 20:37
Ronaldo isn't even as good as classic Ronaldo was in his prime.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 20:38
Ronaldo isn't even as good as classic Ronaldo was in his prime.

I completely agree, although it's nothing to be ashamed of.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 20:40
I've already said that. Get your own lines!

The line, is of course, complete pish considering he was regularly Man Utd's top assister and was leading the Spanish assists chart last time I checked it (start of November).

How people can claim he isnt a 'team player' is beyond me.

GioLoyal
30-11-2010, 20:42
The line, is of course, complete pish considering he was regularly Man Utd's top assister and was leading the Spanish assists chart last time I checked it (start of November).

How people can claim he isnt a 'team player' is beyond me.

Because 9 times out of 10 when he gets the ball within 35-40 yards of goal he shoots.

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 20:42
Messi has 2 world cups left in him, 1 were he will be considered to be at his peak. Can he honestly inspire (scoring incredible goals along the way) a half decent Argentina side to world cup glory like Maradona did in 86? Messi's Argentina side were far better than Maradonas side and he couldn't manage it. Not a chance will he ever equal Maradona.;)

What was the quality of Maradonas opposition in 86? Who was the top team then? anybody on the same level as the current spanish team?

Messi is 23, thats another 2 world cups at his peak.

Also, why is the WC being used as the yardstick when nowadays the Champions League is the top football tournament in the world, and he has won that twice already?

He plays against a better standard of team in that than he does for Argentina.

And its prety ironic that it was maradona who is slated for being incompentent who was in charge during this world cup he apparently failed in.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 20:45
Because 9 times out of 10 when he gets the ball within 35-40 yards of goal he shoots.

And you seriously don't think that's not been instructed? You think he's been doing this his whole career contrary to what SAF/Mourinho have to say?

It's pretty obvious most coaches are very liberal in their utilisation of Ronaldo. I'm sure Kiery posted stats about how he has the best success rate for a winger when it comes to beating a man and assisting, and it was only recently Rio Ferdinand said he was his favourite player to play alongside.

wjm796
30-11-2010, 20:47
The line, is of course, complete pish considering he was regularly Man Utd's top assister and was leading the Spanish assists chart last time I checked it (start of November).

How people can claim he isnt a 'team player' is beyond me.

74 career assists according to the ever reliable Wiki. Pass ya greasy c*nt.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 20:49
People get that perception of Ronaldo because he sulks about the pitch like a baby, crying to the referee. I can remember numerous times when a defender applies a bit of physical pressure on him and he just stops playing and throws his arms in the air then stands hands on hips whilst the opposition break away :D

GioLoyal
30-11-2010, 20:50
And you seriously don't think that's not been instructed? You think he's been doing this his whole career contrary to what SAF/Mourinho have to say?

It's pretty obvious most coaches are very liberal in their utilisation of Ronaldo. I'm sure Kiery posted stats about how he has the best success rate for a winger when it comes to beating a man and assisting, and it was only recently Rio Ferdinand said he was his favourite player to play alongside.

Do I think Alex Ferguson's instructions to Ronaldo before the Champions League final against Barca were hog the ball all night, walk about like a huffy prick and blindly shoot for goal anytime you get the ball in their half?

No, funnily enough, I don't.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 20:52
Do I think Alex Ferguson's instructions to Ronaldo before the Champions League final against Barca was hog the ball all night, walk about like a huffy prick and blindly shoot for goal anytime you get the ball in their half?

No, funnily enough, I don't.

Ah, you mean when the rest of his teammates failed to turn up and he took it upon himself to try and turn the game around? And wait, the same SAF who also admitted to basically giving him a free rein when out on the pitch?

53easy
30-11-2010, 20:52
Do I think Alex Ferguson's instructions to Ronaldo before the Champions League final against Barca were hog the ball all night, walk about like a huffy prick and blindly shoot for goal anytime you get the ball in their half?

No, funnily enough, I don't.

Ronaldo would have picked a better starting 11 that night :D

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 20:55
What was the quality of Maradonas opposition in 86? Who was the top team then? anybody on the same level as the current spanish team?

Messi is 23, thats another 2 world cups at his peak.

Also, why is the WC being used as the yardstick when nowadays the Champions League is the top football tournament in the world, and he has won that twice already?

He plays against a better standard of team in that than he does for Argentina.

And its prety ironic that it was maradona who is slated for being incompentent who was in charge during this world cup he apparently failed in.

Great players are judged on what they do on the world stage, the world cup might not be as important as it once was but if a player does it at club level but fails to reproduce at International level then there will always be question marks against him.

The true world greats of football, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini, Pele etc all stepped up and performed on the world stage, Messi has yet to do that, and there is zero evidence to suggest that he can reach the levels of the players mentioned above.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 20:55
I thought Messi had a pretty good World Cup, more so when you take into account the fact he was playing under a managerial spastic who had no idea what he was doing.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 20:57
Great players are judged on what they do on the world stage, the world cup might not be as important as it once was but if a player does it at club level but fails to reproduce at International level then there will always be question marks against him.

The true world greats of football, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini, Pele etc all stepped up and performed on the world stage, Messi has yet to do that, and there is zero evidence to suggest that he can reach the levels of the players mentioned above.

:D

This is just hilarious.

GioLoyal
30-11-2010, 20:57
Ah, you mean when the rest of his teammates failed to turn up and he took it upon himself to try and turn the game around? And wait, the same SAF who also admitted to basically giving him a free rein when out on the pitch?

You think Ronaldo turned up that night like?

I think Ronaldo did what he always does, went into business for himself.

I honestly don't think he would have cared if Madrid got pumped 5-1 last night so long as he got a goal.

He's like his manager, an attention seeker.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 20:59
to be fair Ronaldo did used to be a fantastic winger, but as hes become more about goals his assists and days of running at and beating fullbacks have just about come to an end. Maybe not come to an end but that side of his game has deteriorated quite a bit.

Id also say its fair to assume he isnt instructed to shoot on site, he was terrible for it in madrids first few games of the season, then suddenly it seemed to stop, Mourinho has to have said something to him, either that or it was a huge coinsidence

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 21:01
I honestly don't think he would have cared if Madrid got pumped 5-1 last night so long as he got a goal.


LOL.

Yep, I'm sure that exactly would have been the case.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 21:02
I thought Messi had a pretty good World Cup, more so when you take into account the fact he was playing under a managerial spastic who had no idea what he was doing.

sense at last.

too many people look at the fact he didnt score and that means he flopped.

As i recall he spent most of his time deep in the midfield because maradona put out a defence and midfield that were incapable of getting the ball forward to the attack. Maradona then went gung ho against Germany like it was still 1986 and his team got ripped to shreds for it.

If anyones to blame for Argentina getting sent back, it was el diego himself, also worth noting that in spite of the top players available to him (some of which he didnt even select) his team only just qualified for the world cup when it should have been a stroll in the park

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:03
:D

This is just hilarious.

Ok then einstein, provide me some evidence of Messi reaching the levels of Maradona, Pele, Zidane etc on the world stage?

Please refrain from posting stats of Messi hitting the woodwork against Greece and South Korea in the world cup.

charlie charlie
30-11-2010, 21:04
to be fair Ronaldo did used to be a fantastic winger, but as hes become more about goals his assists and days of running at and beating fullbacks have just about come to an end. Maybe not come to an end but that side of his game has deteriorated quite a bit.

Id also say its fair to assume he isnt instructed to shoot on site, he was terrible for it in madrids first few games of the season, then suddenly it seemed to stop, Mourinho has to have said something to him, either that or it was a huge coinsidence

I agree that Messi is a better player but to say that Ronaldo's game has detereorated in recent times is nonsense, he has been in incredible form. He does shoot a lot of the time in open play but lets be honest a huge amount of the time it ends up in something positive for the team. Folk can dislike him all they want but he is a brilliant football player.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 21:05
Ok then einstein, provide me some evidence of Messi reaching the levels of Maradona, Pele, Zidane etc on the world stage?

Please refrain from posting stats of Messi hitting the woodwork against Greece and South Korea in the world cup.

What kind of evidence is it you're looking for? :confused:

Goals, medals, caps, assists, world player of the year titles?

You only have to watch the lad play football to understand just how special he is.

And btw what was Zidane doing at 23?

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 21:06
Great players are judged on what they do on the world stage, the world cup might not be as important as it once was but if a player does it at club level but fails to reproduce at International level then there will always be question marks against him.

The true world greats of football, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini, Pele etc all stepped up and performed on the world stage, Messi has yet to do that, and there is zero evidence to suggest that he can reach the levels of the players mentioned above.


He is 23 FFS!!

What age were all the players you mentioned when they produced whatever performnce it was that there is zero evidence of Messi being able to produce?

In 86 Argentina played Korea, Bulgaria and Italy in the group. not exactly a tough group.

They then beat Uruguay, England and Belgium. Not exactly the toughest of teams to face.

Had they had to beat say, Holland, Spain, Italy, France, England, Brazil then Germany to win the thing then i could understand your point about it being where the truly great players could be judged, but they didnt. They played teams who were shite to mediocre in the run to the final of that tournament.

Back then we didnt have a tournament like the champions league so i can understand from that point of view to use the World Cup as the yardstick, but now it isnt. Now performing concistently in the champions league is what is the litmus test of a truly great player.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 21:06
Ok then einstein, provide me some evidence of Messi reaching the levels of Maradona, Pele, Zidane etc on the world stage?

Please refrain from posting stats of Messi hitting the woodwork against Greece and South Korea in the world cup.

You can't really isolate a game but he's been on another planet from any other player for a few years now.

He was amazing against Arsenal in the CL league last season, albeit that was a terrible Arsenal team when you take the injuries into account. I still think Ronaldinho's performances against Chelsea in the 4-2 game and 3-0 win over RM at the Bernabeu were better than anything he has handed in yet, but I am a 'Dinho FANBOY.

GioLoyal
30-11-2010, 21:09
LOL.

Yep, I'm sure that exactly would have been the case.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the guy I argued with on a Messi/Ronaldo thread previously, who believed Ronaldo was a better player than Messi?

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 21:09
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the guy I argued with on a Messi/Ronaldo thread previously, who believed Ronaldo was a better player than Messi?

Don't think so, I've no idea who you are and i've rated Messi to be the better player for a good while now.

Divemaster
30-11-2010, 21:09
Ok then einstein, provide me some evidence of Messi reaching the levels of Maradona, Pele, Zidane etc on the world stage?

Please refrain from posting stats of Messi hitting the woodwork against Greece and South Korea in the world cup.
He's won as many European Cup's as those three combined.

Now that is a fact, not as opinion to which I've written 'FACT' at the end.

(Scoring in) 7 games once every four years isn't the be-all and end-all.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 21:10
I agree that Messi is a better player but to say that Ronaldo's game has detereorated in recent times is nonsense, he has been in incredible form. He does shoot a lot of the time in open play but lets be honest a huge amount of the time it ends up in something positive for the team. Folk can dislike him all they want but he is a brilliant football player.

i didnt say that.

I said in terms of beating players on the wing and creating goals hes deteriorated.

Since then hes become a ruthless goal machine, im sure SAF was quite happy with that transformation tbh

Johnny Cash
30-11-2010, 21:10
Messi scored in 2006 BTW ;)

Not a big fan of the whole WC argument though...it's just seven games. :ninja:

Just???

Surely players should be at the top of their game though? Playing for their country at the top level.

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:12
What kind of evidence is it you're looking for? :confused:

Goals, medals, caps, assists, world player of the year titles?

You only have to watch the lad play football to understand just how special he is.

And btw what was Zidane doing at 23?

I used the argument of players performing on the world stage, Messi hasn't done this, you said it was hilarious.

Goals medals caps assists? There are countless players who have goals, medals, caps, assists.

Messi has done little on the world stage.

GioLoyal
30-11-2010, 21:12
Don't think so, I've no idea who you are and i've rated Messi to be the better player for a good while now.

I must be thinking of someone else. One of your previous names perhaps.

Divemaster
30-11-2010, 21:13
Just???

Surely players should be at the top of their game though? Playing for their country at the top level.

Surely if you've fatigued or have a manager with zero tactical nous then there's only so much you can do.

I thought Messi played relatively well at the WC, without hitting the standards which the public seemed to be expecting.

CertifiedWeissfanboy
30-11-2010, 21:15
I must be thinking of someone else. One of your previous names perhaps.

You say that like i've hid my previous monikers. What a boton. :D

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 21:16
I used the argument of players performing on the world stage, Messi hasn't done this, you said it was hilarious.

Goals medals caps assists? There are countless players who have goals, medals, caps, assists.

Messi has done little on the world stage.

Yet.

And about Zidane?

RFCcalum1872
30-11-2010, 21:17
Even Ronaldo gets a semi watching Messi

LMAO :D good one.

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:19
Yet.

And about Zidane?

Zidane won the first world cup he played in I believe?

Regardless of age, Messi has been playing for his country for 6 years, he has appeared in 2 world cups, he is hardly an inexperienced novice.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 21:22
Zidane won the first world cup he played in I believe?

Regardless of age, Messi has been playing for his country for 6 years, he has appeared in 2 world cups, he is hardly an inexperienced novice.

Where was he on the World or even European stage at the age of 23?

And why are you continually using the world cup as a yardstick ffs did you watch the Italy team who won it in Germany?

Fabio Grosso and Stephan Guivarch are world cup winners for crying out loud :roll:

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:26
Where was he on the World or even European stage at the age of 23?

And why are you continually using the world cup as a yardstick ffs did you watch the Italy team who won it in Germany?

Fabio Grosso and Stephan Guivarch are world cup winners for crying out loud :roll:

Winning the world cup is the pinnacle for any player, if it is not that big a deal and players like Grosso and Guivarch are world cup winners what the feck does that say about Messi?

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 21:29
Zidane won the first world cup he played in I believe?

Regardless of age, Messi has been playing for his country for 6 years, he has appeared in 2 world cups, he is hardly an inexperienced novice.

He was 26 when he did that.

Messi is 23. He had only just retirned from injury at the 2006 world cup and didnt feature much.

France qualified from a group containing denmark, South Africa and sauid arabia.

They beat paraguay in ET, Italy on penalties, Croatia in the semi then a Brazil side that had been inspired to the final by ronaldo who had a mental breakdown and forced to play.

The only game Zidane made a significant contribution in was the final. He didnt play in the game v paraguay due to being suspended after a red card.

So that performance over 6 games, again against teams ranging from pish to really good, and just two goals in the whole tournament makes him better than messi has ever shown he can be?

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:41
He was 26 when he did that.

Messi is 23. He had only just retirned from injury at the 2006 world cup and didnt feature much.

France qualified from a group containing denmark, South Africa and sauid arabia.

They beat paraguay in ET, Italy on penalties, Croatia in the semi then a Brazil side that had been inspired to the final by ronaldo who had a mental breakdown and forced to play.

The only game Zidane made a significant contribution in was the final. He didnt play in the game v paraguay due to being suspended after a red card.

So that performance over 6 games, again against teams ranging from pish to really good, and just two goals in the whole tournament makes him better than messi has ever shown he can be?

Regardless of how he played in that tourney, he still done it when it mattered most, a fabulous final display against Brazil, was he not player of the tournament in 2006 aswell?

My whole point is great players do it on the world stage, the world cup is the be all and end all in terms of status and prestige.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 21:45
Regardless of how he played in that tourney, he still done it when it mattered most, a fabulous final display against Brazil, was he not player of the tournament in 2006 aswell?

My whole point is great players do it on the world stage, the world cup is the be all and end all in terms of status and prestige.

Had there been any evidence prior to that tournament that Zidane could go on and cement his place amongst the world greats?

LiviBear2
30-11-2010, 21:47
Great players are judged on what they do on the world stage, the world cup might not be as important as it once was but if a player does it at club level but fails to reproduce at International level then there will always be question marks against him.

The true world greats of football, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini, Pele etc all stepped up and performed on the world stage, Messi has yet to do that, and there is zero evidence to suggest that he can reach the levels of the players mentioned above.

This is either a wind up or THE dumbest statement ever made on FF.

A cabinet full of La Liga titles, CL medals, Super cups, World Club cups, fifty odd international caps, a ration of nearly a goal a game and a FIFA WPOTY by the age of 23 and you reckon he doesn't have potential to be a great.

Only on FF:D

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 21:48
Regardless of how he played in that tourney, he still done it when it mattered most, a fabulous final display against Brazil, was he not player of the tournament in 2006 aswell?

My whole point is great players do it on the world stage, the world cup is the be all and end all in terms of status and prestige.

Good to see you have absolutely no counter argument to either of my posts on the quality of opposition the faced for the most part in these tournaments.

The award of the player of the tournament in 2006 was nothing more than a gesture from fifa because he was retiring, everybody knows that. Fabio Cannavaro was the best player in that tournament by an absolute mile.

My argument is that your living in the past. The world cup is no longer the be all and ed all.

The Champions League is where truly great players are now judged, not the world cup.

Diego Forlan was player of the tournament at this years world cup. By your reckoning he should be regarded as the same class of player as Zidane and Pele and co?

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:51
Had there been any evidence prior to that tournament that Zidane could go on and cement his place amongst the world greats?

I never followed Zidanes career at international level closely before the world cup in 98, so I couldn't be sure:D

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 21:52
I never followed Zidanes career at international level closely before the world cup in 98, so I couldn't be sure:D

Not much, but there is PLENTY of evidence for Messi.

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 21:57
Good to see you have absolutely no counter argument to either of my posts on the quality of opposition the faced for the most part in these tournaments.

The award of the player of the tournament in 2006 was nothing more than a gesture from fifa because he was retiring, everybody knows that. Fabio Cannavaro was the best player in that tournament by an absolute mile.

My argument is that your living in the past. The world cup is no longer the be all and ed all.

The Champions League is where truly great players are now judged, not the world cup.

Diego Forlan was player of the tournament at this years world cup. By your reckoning he should be regarded as the same class of player as Zidane and Pele and co?

Ask any player in world football what they would rather win, the Champions League or the World Cup, I guarentee you almost all of them would rather win the world cup, it is still the be all and end all for them.

If Messi had performed outstandingly in the world cup and scored a few wonder goals on the way to obtaining a winners medal, every single 1 of his fanboys on here would be ejaculating in their pants and talking the achievement up, they would be using it in every single argument against the Ronaldo debate, and that is a fact.

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 21:59
Ask any player in world football what they would rather win, the Champions League or the World Cup, I guarentee you almost all of them would rather win the world cup, it is still the be all and end all for them.

If Messi had performed outstandingly in the world cup and scored a few wonder goals on the way to obtaining a winners medal, every single 1 of his fanboys on here would be ejaculating in their pants and talking the achievement up, they would be using it in every single argument against the Ronaldo debate, and that is a fact.

You keep skirting around my points which take your argument apart.

I believe that means i win.

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:06
You do realise that Messi is not 22 don't you, you can't even get the little scrotes age right when constructing an argument.:D

As for Maradona being gash in 82 and 90, what a complete and utter nonsense statement, he was hugely instrumental in taking Argentina to the final in 90, they would never have got there without him, but forgetting all that for a moment, Maradona has played in 2 world cup finals and won 1 of them, his achievements in 86 are unparalleled, they are there for all to see and it says it all about your idiotic post that you airbrush 86 out of the equation and concentrate on 82 & 90. I ask again what has Messi done on the World Cup stage? the Argentina sides he is playing in are miles better than the sides Maradona is playing in, yet he has done the square root of f.eck all, sorry I forgot he hit the woodwork a few times:clap:

Do some digging regards criticism of Messi in Argentina, believe me its not difficult to find.


I watched every game of Italia 90,and there is no way Maradona was instrumental in getting Argentina to that final.He was crap. The main men in that tournament were Gazza,Matthaus,Baggio,Schillaci,Voller,Klinsmann, Brehme etc.
Maradona was useless in that tournament,however I do agree that his presence would help the team,inspire them if you like.

And I didn't airbrush out 86,I just gave an alternate view on his failures,seeing as you don't think he had any and Messi has loads.

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 22:08
You keep skirting around my points which take your argument apart.

I believe that means i win.

What points am I skirting around, I have consistently said the world cup is the stage every world footballing great is judged on, I have consistently said Messi has failed to perform on this stage.

You win?

Like f.uck you do, you know fine well what I'm saying is true, Messi hasn't done it on the world stage, if the Champions League is where it's at and all that bullsh1t, then the World Cup should be a piece of piss for him then eh especially given the amount of crap teams that play in it, surely he should be conquering all before him?

WRONG.

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:13
first line is unbelievably insulting.

i wont bother with the rest, dont care what you points are, you can shove them. May sound harsh, but no chance im responding to you after that

Not responding because you know they are all right.

If the first line offends,I will take it back,but you just never know who you're talking to on here do you?

The fact that you probably talk more on Barcelona threads than Rangers threads could lead one to believe somthing like that!

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 22:16
all right? i didnt bother my arse to read your post but id say it was probably loaded with a fair amount of sh*te anyway.


But thank you sirdrinksalot, i now realise that Stephane Guivarch was better than Johan Cruyff

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:20
Complete and utter revisionism. I assume you had your eyes closed when Barca were denied a stonewall penalty in the opening minutes? The best team won over the two legs, the reaction to that game on here was and still is hysterical, especially when you consider the first leg in the Nou Camp when Chelsea were lucky not to have two men sent off and a penalty given against them.

It's not revisionism,it's just a different view.

It would be like us looking at every decision that's gone against us v timmy,but not taking into account that they may have had some harsh decisions go against them sometimes.

As I have said,this Barcelona team is the best team I've ever seen,but they aren't perfect and sometimes they get things they don't deserve.

I don't remember much of the first leg of those 2 games,as it was a bit of a borefest,but if you seriously think Barcelona were better at Stamford Bridge then you need your head read. Chelsea gave the perfect performance in how to deal with Barcelona.
I notice you mention penalties and people sent off,but if Chelsea had got all their penalties and Barca players(definitely Pique) sent off then they'd still have triumphed comfortably.
Are you Spooges partner in Barca? or can you actually just admit that sometimes they don't deserve to win?

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:22
all right? i didnt bother my arse to read your post but id say it was probably loaded with a fair amount of sh*te anyway.


But thank you sirdrinksalot, i now realise that Stephane Guivarch was better than Johan Cruyff

Excellent response.Lose an argument and say nothing other than that I am talking shite.

Loves To Spooge
30-11-2010, 22:26
Excellent response.Lose an argument and say nothing other than that I am talking shite.

im not going to waste my time arguing with someone who decided to question if i was even a rangers fan because i engage in all the barca discussion.

I have no doubts that whatever p*sh you spouted i could have easily countered. You cant lose an argument when you dont get in the argument :roll:

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 22:27
What points am I skirting around, I have consistently said the world cup is the stage every world footballing great is judged on, I have consistently said Messi has failed to perform on this stage.

You win?

Like f.uck you do, you know fine well what I'm saying is true, Messi hasn't done it on the world stage, if the Champions League is where it's at and all that bullsh1t, then the World Cup should be a piece of piss for him then eh especially given the amount of crap teams that play in it, surely he should be conquering all before him?

WRONG.

So Diego Forlan then.

Player of the tournament in 2010. Is he one of the all time greats of the game?

Patrick Muller. Golden Shoe winner from the last World cup. Is he an all time great?

Miroslove Klose is almost the all time top scorer in world cup finals yet has barely kicked his own arse at club level over the last few seasons.

Lukas Podolski looks a world beater any time he turns out for the germans yet has been terrible in club football for years.

Again, Lionel Messi is 23 years old FFS. The 2006 world cup he had only just returned from injury and was used sparingly by the manager. He was also 19 at the time. He was only picked to start in 1 game so we can pretty much discount his appearance at this world cup from your argument.

This last world cup he had a buffoon of a manager who has been criticised by all and sundry for his team selections and tactics. Ironically its the guy you profess Messi can never be as good as who unquestionably hindered the chances of Messi leadng argentina to glory.

I cannot understand why the performances from players over a spell of 7 games, against teams which can very well be utter crap, are used as a measurement over consistently great performances over an entire season, when many of the games are against much better opposition.

boonabear
30-11-2010, 22:29
It is worrying how some people on this board do get over excited and quite heated about discussions on teams such as Barca, Real, Man United, Chelsea and Liverpool

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 22:30
It's not revisionism,it's just a different view.

It would be like us looking at every decision that's gone against us v timmy,but not taking into account that they may have had some harsh decisions go against them sometimes.

As I have said,this Barcelona team is the best team I've ever seen,but they aren't perfect and sometimes they get things they don't deserve.

I don't remember much of the first leg of those 2 games,as it was a bit of a borefest,but if you seriously think Barcelona were better at Stamford Bridge then you need your head read. Chelsea gave the perfect performance in how to deal with Barcelona.
I notice you mention penalties and people sent off,but if Chelsea had got all their penalties and Barca players(definitely Pique) sent off then they'd still have triumphed comfortably.
Are you Spooges partner in Barca? or can you actually just admit that sometimes they don't deserve to win?

I said the 'best team over the two legs', and they were. I also suggest you go back and watch the penalty claims again. They were anything but 3 stonewallers. Anelka's was a total dive FFS. The only claim which should have been given was Pique's handball.

Your last line is hilarious though. Really funny considering I was routing for Chelsea that night :roll:

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:36
I said the 'best team over the two legs', and they were. I also suggest you go back and watch the penalty claims again. They were anything but 3 stonewallers. Anelka's was a total dive FFS. The only claim which should have been given was Pique's handball.

Your last line is hilarious though. Really funny considering I was routing for Chelsea that night :roll:

I wasn't routing for anyone myself. I just want to see Rangers win.

Pique's was a straight red card too. They wouldn't have recovered from that.

Wasn't one of them blatant grappling in the box by either Puyol or Pique too?

Or am I thinking about a different game?

sirdrinksalot
30-11-2010, 22:37
So Diego Forlan then.

Player of the tournament in 2010. Is he one of the all time greats of the game?

Patrick Muller. Golden Shoe winner from the last World cup. Is he an all time great?

Miroslove Klose is almost the all time top scorer in world cup finals yet has barely kicked his own arse at club level over the last few seasons.

Lukas Podolski looks a world beater any time he turns out for the germans yet has been terrible in club football for years.

Again, Lionel Messi is 23 years old FFS. The 2006 world cup he had only just returned from injury and was used sparingly by the manager. He was also 19 at the time. He was only picked to start in 1 game so we can pretty much discount his appearance at this world cup from your argument.

This last world cup he had a buffoon of a manager who has been criticised by all and sundry for his team selections and tactics. Ironically its the guy you profess Messi can never be as good as who unquestionably hindered the chances of Messi leadng argentina to glory.

I cannot understand why the performances from players over a spell of 7 games, against teams which can very well be utter crap, are used as a measurement over consistently great performances over an entire season, when many of the games are against much better opposition.

You are really not getting it are you? Forlan, Podolski, Klose etc will never be remembered as true all time greats, although they were excellent in world cups. Anyone who has a modicum of football knowledge will tell you the true greats of the game - Maradona, Pele, Beckenbaur, Zidane etc were all magnificent club players but to be considered a true great you have to take it up a level and these guys did. When people in the media talk about these players and what they achieved in the game, 99% of the time they will talk about and show clips form world cups.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 22:40
I wasn't routing for anyone myself. I just want to see Rangers win.

Pique's was a straight red card too. They wouldn't have recovered from that.

Wasn't one of them blatant grappling in the box by either Puyol or Pique too?

Or am I thinking about a different game?

You don't know that. The first claim - I think - was a tussle between Drogba and Puyol, they both had a hold of each other and Drogba waited until they had crossed the line into the area and his legs buckled. Seen them given before but he made the most of it. Anelka's was a blatant dive and I agree Pique should have been penalised. However, Barca were denied two claims aswell let's not forget, so to say they were cheated is a load of nonsense. The best team won.

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:41
im not going to waste my time arguing with someone who decided to question if i was even a rangers fan because i engage in all the barca discussion.

I have no doubts that whatever p*sh you spouted i could have easily countered. You cant lose an argument when you dont get in the argument :roll:

Do you find it impossible to accept or do you just ignore the fact that Barca got decisions in their favour when they beat Chelsea to go on and win it in 2009? And yet go on about Barca not getting decisions against Inter that might have won them the match!

You can't have it both ways. It's very timmy like to expect everything just to go in your favour.

Oh and can someone else maybe ask him this cos I'd be really interested to see the answer?

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 22:44
You are really not getting it are you? Forlan, Podolski, Klose etc will never be remembered as true all time greats, although they were excellent in world cups. Anyone who has a modicum of football knowledge will tell you the true greats of the game - Maradona, Pele, Beckenbaur, Zidane etc were all magnificent club players but to be considered a true great you have to take it up a level and these guys did. When people in the media talk about these players and what they achieved in the game, 99% of the time they will talk about and show clips form world cups.

It just seems like a convenient angle for you to use. You're not making any sense to be fair. You've been banging on about producing it in world cups and then when you are presented with lesser rated players who HAVE done it you're brushing it off.

RangersRus
30-11-2010, 22:45
You don't know that. The first claim - I think - was a tussle between Drogba and Puyol, they both had a hold of each other and Drogba waited until they had crossed the line into the area and his legs buckled. Seen them given before but he made the most of it. Anelka's was a blatant dive and I agree Pique should have been penalised. However, Barca were denied two claims aswell let's not forget, so to say they were cheated is a load of nonsense. The best team won.

The best team and a victory for football I agree. But After getting a result in Barca,and then stifling them and creating the chances they did,I thought Chelsea were very unfortunate.

I think at the time I wanted Chelsea to win,but generally I always want the better football team to win,and that undoubtedly was Barcelona.

I tend to change which continental teams I like and want to win,and last night found myself wanting Real to win,but all the while watching the game thinking I just wanted to see Messi and Xavi continue tearing them apart.

I suppose the beauty of watching these teams is,it doesn't really matter who wins to us.

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 22:47
It's not revisionism,it's just a different view.

It would be like us looking at every decision that's gone against us v timmy,but not taking into account that they may have had some harsh decisions go against them sometimes.

As I have said,this Barcelona team is the best team I've ever seen,but they aren't perfect and sometimes they get things they don't deserve.

I don't remember much of the first leg of those 2 games,as it was a bit of a borefest,but if you seriously think Barcelona were better at Stamford Bridge then you need your head read. Chelsea gave the perfect performance in how to deal with Barcelona.
I notice you mention penalties and people sent off,but if Chelsea had got all their penalties and Barca players(definitely Pique) sent off then they'd still have triumphed comfortably.
Are you Spooges partner in Barca? or can you actually just admit that sometimes they don't deserve to win?

But they lost, so they didnt.

If you want to go down the road of unjust refereeing decisoin in that tie, then Chelsea would have been dead and buried after the first leg had the decisions in that game all been called correctly.

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 22:47
The best team and a victory for football I agree. But After getting a result in Barca,and then stifling them and creating the chances they did,I thought Chelsea were very unfortunate.

I think at the time I wanted Chelsea to win,but generally I always want the better football team to win,and that undoubtedly was Barcelona.

I tend to change which continental teams I like and want to win,and last night found myself wanting Real to win,but all the while watching the game thinking I just wanted to see Messi and Xavi continue tearing them apart.

I suppose the beauty of watching these teams is,it doesn't really matter who wins to us.

They were very unfortunate but they were very fortunate to escape the first leg with a draw, and there was some dodgy decisions that night in their favour. These things evened themselves out ;)

bigbluebroxi
30-11-2010, 22:56
You are really not getting it are you? Forlan, Podolski, Klose etc will never be remembered as true all time greats, although they were excellent in world cups. Anyone who has a modicum of football knowledge will tell you the true greats of the game - Maradona, Pele, Beckenbaur, Zidane etc were all magnificent club players but to be considered a true great you have to take it up a level and these guys did. When people in the media talk about these players and what they achieved in the game, 99% of the time they will talk about and show clips form world cups.

Theres absolutley nothing im missing.

Again by your criteria Forlan must have shown more to suggest he could be remembered as a great due to his world cup performance then?

I'm not disputing in the slightest that any of the plauyers you mentioned are truly great world class players, or that they didnt turn in peformances of that level in the world cup.

But using performances in the world cup to measure how great a player is now a thing of the past.

The CL contains the greatest players in the world playing in better teams than they do for their respective national sides. It is not possible to take it up a level from the Champions League. It not is the highest level a player can play at.

And again, your ignoring the fact Messi is only 23. When Maradona was a similiar age he turned in a pretty mediocre perfromance at the 82 world cup, and had done nowhere near what Messi had at club level.

And before you spout on about him not performing against poor teams at the world cup, Argentina and Messi were quite impressive in the opening games. Their idiot manager got them put out by playing ridiculous tactics against germany. Not much any of the attackers could do when there was no defence in that game.

allanrfc
30-11-2010, 23:33
Another picture from the game:

http://i51.tinypic.com/25fprap.jpg

You have to love Ronaldo's attitude :roll::D

El Guaje
30-11-2010, 23:35
Tell me that's a photoshop :clap:

LiviBear2
01-12-2010, 00:06
All that's missing is the speech bubble with "isno fair, am pyur the bestest player in the wurld soan amur"

govanbluenose
01-12-2010, 00:36
Both are outstanding footballers and the debate over who is the best is rather puerile.

Oooooo, puerile? Messi plays for his team. Ronaldo for himself.

govanbluenose
01-12-2010, 00:40
Me thinks thats just a little OTT LTS, Barca were good but Real's defence was shocking and losing a couple of early goals in each half knocked the stuffing out of them.

Aw, come oan. Their defence was cut to ribbons by Barca's passing!

davieboy1873
01-12-2010, 00:45
Ones a great player and great team player the others a great player.

FortWilliamLoyal
01-12-2010, 00:48
Jesus christ, the fawning over Barcelona on here is absolutely sickening.

Yes, they are the best team in the world.

Yes, Messi is the best player in the world.

But there seems to be grown men on here, Rangers supporters at that, chugging themselves silly over this mob.

I have to agree, quite frankly it's a bit embarrassing.

johnny fontane
01-12-2010, 00:53
Both are outstanding footballers and the debate over who is the best is rather puerile.

Exactly, can't imagine many football fans would be disappointed to have either of them sign for their team. Both can be a joy to watch.

Loves To Spooge
03-12-2010, 21:53
another cracking read from Sid Lowe, food for thought.


Barca's Messi shows he's just as 'complete' as Real's Ronaldo

Supporters of Cristiano Ronaldo argued he's more complete than Lionel Messi
Ronaldo is a superior athlete but Messi has better vision and link play
Statistically Messi has been the better performer than Ronaldo this season

Cristiano Ronaldo (left) and Lionel Messi are both superb in their own right, but Messi outshone Ronaldo in the recent clįsico.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/2010/writers/sid_lowe/12/03/messi.ronaldo/ronaldo-messi-298.jpg

Pep Guardiola blew out his cheeks, exhaling a huge lung full of air, and rolled his eyes. He could barely believe anyone would be stupid enough to think otherwise.
"But," the Barcelona manager exclaimed Monday, craning his head forward and looking straight at his inquisitor with an incredulous look etched across his face, "who is more complete than Leo Messi?"
For many, the answer was obvious: Cristiano Ronaldo.
Just as green or blue or red or whatever color is en vogue this season as the new black, "complete" is the new "best." Complete is a surrogate superlative, the latest tactic, a piece of discursive dexterity in the sometimes tedious Messi or Ronaldo debate -- presented like it was some kind of incontestable fact.
It is as if those who prefer Ronaldo -- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; he is without a doubt a brilliant footballer -- have realized that they are fighting a losing battle in declaring him the world's "best" player. So instead they have latched on to something else, something seemingly more objective: He is more complete than Messi.
You might think, they argued, that Messi is the best player in the world, but Ronaldo is the most complete player in the world, more valuable. Put together a checklist of footballing attributes and you'll see why. Ronaldo can, in short, do more than Messi. Never was that better expressed than when, a year ago, the newspaper Marca ran what it called an X-ray of Messi and Ronaldo. Calling it an X-ray gave it a kind of pseudoscientific quality, while its format was designed to imbue it with an objective touch.

Now, let's assume for a minute that the there is nothing suspicious about the report -- despite the fact that it was commissioned by the pro-Real Madrid newspaper Marca, a newspaper that appears to be trying to beatify Ronaldo; despite the fact that Messi plays for Barcelona and Ronaldo plays for Madrid; and despite the fact that it was written by a Madrid-based journalist who had just signed a contract with Real Madrid to write a series of glossy biographies of Madrid players, starting with Ronaldo.
Let's assume, too, that the author, Enrique Ortego, was right to point out in the preamble that "Messi is overvalued because he plays for Barcelona -- he is in the perfect place at the right time." Let's assume he is right, too, that the proof of that is in the fact that he "does not play as well for Argentina," unlike Ronaldo for Portugal. Let's even assume he is right, too, when he says, "Ronaldo can perform in any habitat -- United, Madrid or the national team -- and does not need his teammates as much." Let's assume all that and see what the writer had to say.
After an analysis of 10 qualities, with marks out of 10 given for each, the report concludes that, as the huge headline on the front of Marca had it, RONALDO IS MORE COMPLETE THAN MESSI. He outscored Messi on Physical Condition, Speed, Shooting, Heading, Leadership and Free-Kicks/Penalties, received the same score on Technique and Passing, and was beaten only on Collective Play and Dribbling. In other words, the report was essentially a published version of the argument so often presented in Ronaldo's defense.

But is it true? Can any analysis based on a score-totting system that is essentially arbitrary be reliable? Can you really judge players on a checklist, like football is a game of Top Trumps? And is 1-10 a sufficient range to handle the nuances of footballers? If so, if you can, if the methodology is OK, do you agree with the judgments made?
Is Ronaldo really better than Messi in Leadership? And by two marks? (And how do you measure that? By stepping up when the game gets tough? By refusing to go missing? By doing the right thing? By producing in the really big games? Big games like the clįsico on Monday? Or countless other clįsicos? Or the Copa del Rey final? Or the European Cup final? Does Ronaldo do that and Messi not?)
With the ball at his feet, does Ronaldo really have greater speed? Is he actually quicker without it?
Is his Technique really as good?
Is he really as good at Passing?
Is his Shooting really better?
Statistically, the answer to that last question is "no." This season, Ronaldo has taken more shots than Messi. But only 16 percent have gone in, to Messi's 25 percent, while 38 percent have been on target, to Messi's 52 percent. In terms of goals per minute, Messi has scored more -- and more of his goals come away from home, where, in theory, it is more difficult. He has scored the key first goal seven times; Ronaldo just twice. He also hasn't taken any penalties; Ronaldo has taken four. Ah, you reply, but Ronaldo can hit it far better from distance, as he is bursting with power while Messi is a weakling. Again, that's not true: Messi has scored three from outside the box, the same as Ronaldo from a quarter of the shots.
But let's return to the X-ray. Even if Ronaldo is better in those categories, take a look at that list again. Take a look at the categories that enable Ronaldo to sneak through -- objectively, remember -- as the More Complete player. Penalties/free kicks are as important as Shooting, Dribbling and Passing? Is that right? Then there's Physical Condition, Speed and Heading. That's an interesting choice of categories, seemingly chosen in search of a specific result.
Indeed, Marca's "analysis" was reminiscent of the kind of spoof comparisons carried out by the British comic magazine Viz that were always tipped to create a fictitious result. A kind of "Who Is The Best Michael: Jackson or Crawford?" with the last category being Ability to Moonwalk. Marca might as well have included "Portuguese-Ness."
Maybe we should not assume objectivity after all. But even if the categories were not consciously chosen to tip the result Ronaldo's way, there is still something striking about them. Physical Condition, Speed, Heading -- aren't they all be derivatives of the same thing? And when others argue that Ronaldo is more complete, that list of related characteristics gets extended. He is, they say, faster, stronger, more powerful. He hits the ball harder, runs more, leaps higher. Faster, stronger, higher -- now where have we heard that before? Couldn't that all come under one category called athleticism? Usain Bolt is a better athlete than Leo Messi, too.
All in all, isn't that a bit of a skewed interpretation of footballing attributes, a partial and partisan appraisal of what a player's game entails? Does it not reflect a peculiar obsession with the physical side of the game that willfully overlooks so much of what football is also about? There is nothing wrong with liking Ronaldo more. There's nothing wrong with believing he is a better player. But the fashionable, favored refuge is no refuge at all. The "objective" study does not hold up to scrutiny.
Ronaldo and Messi have appeared to match each other stride for stride this season. Their goal-scoring statistics, for instance, are stunning. But it is not just about goals. And, to limit footballing attributes to the purely physical is absurd. What about controlling the game? What about providing assists? What about vision? What about precision? What about efficiency? What about tactical awareness and decision-making? What about being involved in all areas of the game?
That was what Guardiola was getting at. It was Monday night and Messi had just played against Real Madrid. He had not produced one of those magical runs. He had not scored -- for the first time in 10 games. He had not done the things that people associate with him -- things he does so well that his other, more prosaic qualities appear to get overlooked. He had not scored or produced a fantasy dribble.
And yet, he had still been sensational. And yet, his team had still won 5-0. And he had been at the heart of it, controlling the game, passing the ball, dominating. Providing two inch-perfect assists into the bargain as well, the second a pass of barely plausible brilliance. He had been the complete footballer. He played up front -- he hit the post with a sumptuous lob -- he played in the middle and he played on the right. His performance was, in short, complete.
"It is not about goals," Guardiola said. "Messi is the most complete player in the world. He can do everything: He associates with his teammates, he combines, he opens up space."
He would say that, of course. But he is right.
It is true that what makes Messi appear so remarkable are his headline skills. He has a ridiculous number of goals -- 70 in his last 72 games. He has also outdribbled Ronaldo this season, completing 50 successful dribbles to the Portuguese's 30. But it is not about that. It is about the other things. All the other things. It is about the fact that, contrary to the assumptions that Messi is a player who only does the extraordinary, he does the simple things, too. Messi, in short, can play. When Ronaldo is no longer an athlete, he will probably not be much of a player. Messi will.
Monday was no one-off. If you really want to run through a checklist, try a list that's based not on arbitrary marks but actual statistics. This season, Messi has provided 27 assists, seven of them leading to goals. Ronaldo has provided 22, four of them leading to goals. Messi provides a goal every 147 minutes to Ronaldo's 307. Messi has completed 590 passes to Ronaldo's 429. Messi has delivered 105 bad passes to Ronaldo's 159. Messi gives the ball away less often, too. Ronaldo has delivered 45 balls into the area and Messi has delivered 64. Of those, Ronaldo has found his target four times, Messi 60 times.
In total, Messi has tried 695 passes and completed 590 to Ronaldo's 588 and 429. He is involved all over the pitch; his "action areas" are more varied. He participates in moves more often, starts more plays and has more total "actions" in a game than Ronaldo. As for that often eulogized quality known as fight, the cojones stereotype of which English commentators, in particular, are so fond: Messi has even committed more fouls, robbed more balls and won more possession than Ronaldo.
None of which makes Ronaldo a bad player. Far from it. He is a truly brilliant player. None of which means you have to like Messi any more. None of which necessarily means that Messi is definitively better than Ronaldo. What it does mean is that the "objective" argument that Ronaldo is more complete than Messi is -- despite what the discourse claims, despite the pseudo-objectivity -- utterly full of holes. Not objective at all. Rarely has the definition of complete been so incomplete.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/sid_lowe/12/03/messi.ronaldo/index.html

Loves To Spooge
05-12-2010, 14:27
another week another 2 goals for each.

had to laugh at sid lowes comment

"Are Messi and Ronaldo in cahoots and taking piss out of us all? "Two this week?" "Yeah, go on then""

GregMc
05-12-2010, 14:30
Messi is here.






Ronaldo is down here.

Bang on there.

cameron92
05-12-2010, 14:33
Anyone actually think Ronaldo is better?

Always thought Messi was the better player, got laughed at for saying it a few seasons back when ronaldo was with united...looks like i was right though

Allan.
05-12-2010, 14:49
I think their both terrific. Ronaldo may be ball greedy, but he does something with it most of the time.

Messi has the best natural talent. Ronaldo worked very very hard to get to where he is right now. In my opinion.

GioLoyal
05-12-2010, 19:42
Another picture from the game:

http://i51.tinypic.com/25fprap.jpg

You have to love Ronaldo's attitude :roll::D

Such a team player that guy.

Dalriadager
05-12-2010, 20:14
Some right wee greeting lassies on this thread

realger34
05-12-2010, 21:37
Another picture from the game:

http://i51.tinypic.com/25fprap.jpg

You have to love Ronaldo's attitude :roll::D

Yeah that's classic Ronaldo

Always gets stuck in when thing don't go his way

47blue
05-12-2010, 23:17
Messi is a real class act & fits in perfectly in the perfect team. Ronaldo is a terrific player but a bit of a prima donna IMHO

Loves To Spooge
05-12-2010, 23:20
that picture of ronaldo with his hands on his hips, it was when pedro muscled into him and he just stopped and waved his hands looking for a free kick which the ref didnt give :D

Loves To Spooge
13-01-2011, 12:55
Surely even Ronaldo knows that Messi is the greatest player on the planet and could go down as the greatest player to grace the beautiful game?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04qp23feCpe6B/x810.jpg

Ronaldo looking on at the great man in both admiration and jealousy.

Part 2 :ninja: :D

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_sow_experts__16/ept_sports_sow_experts-107211826-1294785314.jpg?ymi8mYEDJnn57qEI

GovanRear1987
13-01-2011, 13:48
Both are superb footballers but Messi is just a class apart. Ronaldo is the second best player in the world though

adidasler
13-01-2011, 13:52
I prefer Ronaldo.

In no way taking away from Messi`s talent, just prefer the style of Ronaldo.

BrianSmp
13-01-2011, 13:57
Part 2 :ninja: :D

Not this shit again!

Loves To Spooge
13-01-2011, 15:14
Not this shit again!

http://h-3.abload.de/img/crlolni6e.gif

Loves To Spooge
22-02-2011, 14:15
updated stats for the 2.

Fookin nora.

Messi - 41 goals in 35 games

Ronaldo - 34 goals in 37 games


http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3277/la-liga/2011/02/22/2363478/lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo-head-to-head-priceless-leo-winner-

TPABear
22-02-2011, 14:19
There really is no doubt

oranjeboy
22-02-2011, 14:31
Part 2 :ninja: :D

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_sow_experts__16/ept_sports_sow_experts-107211826-1294785314.jpg?ymi8mYEDJnn57qEI


can we got those 3 up front and those other 2 in midfield for the bears? ;)

Briggsybear_jr.
22-02-2011, 14:39
updated stats for the 2.

Fookin nora.

Messi - 41 goals in 35 games

Ronaldo - 34 goals in 37 games


http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3277/la-liga/2011/02/22/2363478/lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo-head-to-head-priceless-leo-winner-

That is a superb article for stats on the both of them. Barcelona's passing stats for the season compared to Madrid's though is unreal :eek:

Barca - 16,477 complete out of 18,782 passes (88%)
Real - 10,686 complete out of 13,268 passes (80%)

Loves To Spooge
12-03-2011, 12:38
from BBC gossip section :clap:


The chairman of a French village football team has been suspended after making an attempt to sign Barcelona's Lionel Messi through official channels after a night out. FC Borne's bid was intercepted by the French Football Federation.

cantab
10-04-2011, 21:19
Updated stats:

Messi - 47 goals in 45 games with 23 assists.

Ronaldo - 39 goals 44 games with 12 assists.

There's really no doubt now that Messi is the better player.

aussiearsenal
10-04-2011, 21:33
both fantastic players but both completey different types of player.

david91
10-04-2011, 21:38
Updated stats:

Messi - 47 goals in 45 games with 23 assists.

Ronaldo - 39 goals 44 games with 12 assists.

There's really no doubt now that Messi is the better player.

But surely you can then argue that Messi is in a much better team alongside much better players

imalive1690
11-04-2011, 02:38
Updated stats:

Messi - 47 goals in 45 games with 23 assists.

Ronaldo - 39 goals 44 games with 12 assists.

There's really no doubt now that Messi is the better player.

Maybe but your stats prove nowt.Messi plays in a far more attacking team.

Loves To Spooge
11-04-2011, 06:40
Ronaldo plays in the best squad in the world with the supposed best manager in the world.

Dont tell me Barcas squad is better either, they have a stronger first 11 but no depth as shown now with their injuries.

I love the way folk make out like Ronaldos hard done by playing with alonso, di maria, ozil, marcelo and the rest :D

Stats prove something in this case, the top scorer in europe, and more assists than any other in europe.