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tatmans
29-12-2008, 00:08
with the ever increasing costs the club have in the current climate,and the real possibility of no champions league money for a few seasons given the way the playing side is going,is it conceivable that rangers fc could be no more.is the chairman waiting on a dubai consortium making him an offer he can't refuse that's not going to happen.my question is are we in danger here.we are constantly downsizing and weakening the playing staff to manage the debt,yet the manager is being allowed to spunk money on mediocre players.sir david has already had to be bailed out due to his financial mismanagement.is he taking the club down a road here that we might not recover from.i would be very interested in responses from anyone with some financial accumen here and anyone who can see where we will be long term.thoughts please

yorkhill_loyal
29-12-2008, 00:10
if Rangers do there will also be a lot of others

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 00:10
no the club will just have to down-size even more, and i dont just mean on the park, its a timmy myth that Rangers could go to the wall...

tatmans
29-12-2008, 00:11
that's another thing.if we go to the wall scottish football as we know it is also ***t.

tatmans
29-12-2008, 00:14
no the club will just have to down-size even more, and i dont just mean on the park, its a timmy myth that Rangers could go to the wall...so would we end up just another spl team,like aberdeen,dundee utd etc.would that be acceptable to the support,im not sure it would

Almost_Blue
29-12-2008, 00:16
in word, no.

bestservedcold
29-12-2008, 00:17
when the news is full of banks struggling and high street names calling in the administrators, why would any football team be any different

WelcomeBackBarry
29-12-2008, 00:18
cant see it in my lifetime

WBB:ninja:

rbr
29-12-2008, 00:18
in a word , yes , and the media would simply allow it , do not kid yourself

tatmans
29-12-2008, 00:19
when the news is full of banks struggling and high street names calling in the administrators, why would any football team be any differentthat really is a horryfying thought

squaddie-bear
29-12-2008, 00:19
wouldn't happen, we own Ibrox and that is a whole lot of potential money for an extremely rainy day.

bestservedcold
29-12-2008, 00:22
wouldn't happen, we own Ibrox and that is a whole lot of potential money for an extremely rainy day.

and the banks own one or two properties and some land

rank01
29-12-2008, 00:23
While there are Rangers supporters, the club wont die.

bestservedcold
29-12-2008, 00:25
While there are Rangers supporters, the club wont die.

correct... the club would never die


but for anyone to suggest that the stadium or anything else can make Rangers (or any other club) immune to bankruptcy is kidding themselves on

Almost_Blue
29-12-2008, 00:27
in a word , yes , and the media would simply allow it , do not kid yourself

It would have nothing to do with the media, it would be down to us to save the club

blueboy49
29-12-2008, 00:50
not a chance.There are two institutions in Scotland.Rangers and the church.

Oatlands
29-12-2008, 01:14
Yes its possible but not probable since the cost cutting measures have been made. Whats a more realistic scenario is David Murray going to the wall as he is wrapped up in property and we all know whats happened to that. For now the banks are a mess and not calling in loans like his but the clock is ticking and he must be worried.

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 01:19
If it was written in tomorrow`s papers and announced on radio and television that Rangers were going down the tubes, who or what would stop the club disappearing completely?

Rangers has to pay its way in life.

If it doesn`t do that, it will die.

It`s that simple.

JamesCurranBaxter
29-12-2008, 01:23
Yes well, if we go I'm taking everyone else with me...

MrD
29-12-2008, 01:24
Highly unlikely!!

macleodrup
29-12-2008, 01:25
It's not our attendances that are plumetting! I'd suggest that our neighbours are more likely and I can't see that hapening either. Traditionally Gers fans have been more affluent so they would support their team if such an occasion arose.

georgeclooney
29-12-2008, 01:33
It's not our attendances that are plumetting! I'd suggest that our neighbours are more likely and I can't see that hapening either. Traditionally Gers fans have been more affluent so they would support their team if such an occasion arose.

The other mob would have went to the Social for a Crisis Loan when the doors were being shut !

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 01:33
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

jicre
29-12-2008, 01:34
It's not our attendances that are plumetting! I'd suggest that our neighbours are more likely and I can't see that hapening either. Traditionally Gers fans have been more affluent so they would support their team if such an occasion arose.


.....................and that as I have posted on many ocassions is the Barrel that this Dhirty Rhobbing Bhassa has US over - to SAVE RFC how much more are YOU prepared to give him?

Oatlands
29-12-2008, 01:45
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - see point 4) the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

You make some points that are valid and clearly have done your homework. MIH must have a negative net worth right now. However the banks are being held up by the government and they dont want panic. Murray is a very visible figure in Scotland and they will hold off on pushing him and his firm into liquidation. A more likely view is that the banks squeeze Murray for more collateral and he will say "sorry dont have it". He may not be able to pay the interest due anyway. If any large amounts of his debt come due in 2009 there is no way the bank will renew. I suspect that the new HBOS/Lloyds bankers will force him to sell Rangers in order for him to keep the loans in place for his core business. That is the real danger in 2009.

Middlesexbear
29-12-2008, 01:51
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - see point 4) the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

Thanks D&C, very interesting read, i await with anticipation what the new year will bring.

doublewhopper
29-12-2008, 01:53
Not before Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee united etc do....by the time it happened to Rangers, Scottish football would not be existing anyway.

usbear
29-12-2008, 01:56
You make some points that are valid and clearly have done your homework. MIH must have a negative net worth right now. However the banks are being held up by the government and they dont want panic. Murray is a very visible figure in Scotland and they will hold off on pushing him and his firm into liquidation. A more likely view is that the banks squeeze Murray for more collateral and he will say "sorry dont have it". He may not be able to pay the interest due anyway. If any large amounts of his debt come due in 2009 there is no way the bank will renew. I suspect that the new HBOS/Lloyds bankers will force him to sell Rangers in order for him to keep the loans in place for his core business. That is the real danger in 2009.

this actually might be a good thing if the bank force him to sell the club in this climate

if he can't sell for what he owes then surely the bank would try to offload the club to any prepared investor at a discount to try an salvage some of the money owed

the rst should be ramping up it's pr and the fans should be lurking to pick the club up for a bargain

lothiantrueblue
29-12-2008, 01:57
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - see point 4) the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.


first post

away and shoite

:mad:

your at it mate

tamtherangersman
29-12-2008, 01:58
would we stand back and watch it happen...........no fecking chance.

Geo 1972
29-12-2008, 01:58
I don't know about the financial side of things, but thanks to a relentless onslaught against us, then our enemies are making us appear morally bankrupt. The sad part is that we have nobody to stand up for us.

blueorder36
29-12-2008, 02:00
Dear Rangers;
please join our league as you have so much to add and because we need your northern supporters. signed...barclays premiership

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:01
You make some points that are valid and clearly have done your homework. MIH must have a negative net worth right now. However the banks are being held up by the government and they dont want panic. Murray is a very visible figure in Scotland and they will hold off on pushing him and his firm into liquidation. A more likely view is that the banks squeeze Murray for more collateral and he will say "sorry dont have it". He may not be able to pay the interest due anyway. If any large amounts of his debt come due in 2009 there is no way the bank will renew. I suspect that the new HBOS/Lloyds bankers will force him to sell Rangers in order for him to keep the loans in place for his core business. That is the real danger in 2009.

The size of an MIH insolvency and its possible effect on HBOS' own share price (if HBOS take a GBP400m write down now... it would be a disaster)...
this is all that keeps Murray's business afloat.

MIH is just one business... let's not forget that. The UK economy will have thousands of MIH's. The banks have been forced to write down the value of assets which are valued daily in the market: mortgage backed securities, shares in businesses, etc.

They have not written down a penny from bad loans which are still performing (at least at first glance). The fact that these loans are still "performing" is because the banks are lending them the money to pay the interest on the loans!!!

This is not a normal situation! The scale MIH's problems boggle the mind. Any publicly traded stock would have been shorted into oblivion by now... and rightly so. The scale of this problem... shows how badly the banks have exposed themselves.

Like lemmings, the followed a charismatic entrepreneur over the cliff.
They will not do it again... especially not in football.

That owning Rangers has cost Murray about GBP200 million over the last 20 years will warn off all but the most stupid potential buyer. There is an economic meltdown in progress- and most people who thought they were rich last year- are worth less than half of that amount now.

ENIC's Joe Lewis lost GBP800 million this year when Bear Sterns collapsed.
He will not be looking for playthings... but real businesses that can help him make that back. He will not be alone.

Lets put it this way, not only am I not optimistic for Murray's future, I am also pretty pessemistic about Rangers future.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:02
first post

away and shoite

:mad:

your at it mate


I knew I would get this. The accounts are available for anyone to read - do your homework and come back and disagree with me.

I think I'll just slip back to my lurking now.

pb056
29-12-2008, 02:03
while rangers have a constant level of support from fans i dont see the club coming close to it. However in the current finacial situation football and spending on it is a luxuary item and in times like these, are the first thing that is cut back on when people have less cash.

if the situation continues and people have less disposable income available then the club will visabily start to suffer i feel. maybe not 2009 but 2010.

doublewhopper
29-12-2008, 02:05
first post

away and shoite

:mad:

your at it mate

Probably a Taig.

But he uses grammar, numbers and pretends to know what he's on about...so will probably be given credence.

eleventh floor
29-12-2008, 02:05
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - see point 4) the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

An interesting point of view but one that could be labelled at any club in the World at this present time. Please understand that if a club like Rangers can go to the wall, and I don't think they can, then any club is vulnerable. What needs to happen for a start is for players earnings to be capped at a level that is bearable. Too many of these guys earn way in excess of what a club can afford.

lothiantrueblue
29-12-2008, 02:05
The size of an MIH insolvency and its possible effect on HBOS' own share price (if HBOS take a GBP400m write down now... it would be a disaster)...
this is all that keeps Murray's business afloat.

MIH is just one business... let's not forget that. The UK economy will have thousands of MIH's. The banks have been forced to write down the value of assets which are valued daily in the market: mortgage backed securities, shares in businesses, etc.

They have not written down a penny from bad loans which are still performing (at least at first glance). The fact that these loans are still "performing" is because the banks are lending them the money to pay the interest on the loans!!!

This is not a normal situation! The scale MIH's problems boggle the mind. Any publicly traded stock would have been shorted into oblivion by now... and rightly so. The scale of this problem... shows how badly the banks have exposed themselves.

Like lemmings, the followed a charismatic entrepreneur over the cliff.
They will not do it again... especially not in football.

That owning Rangers has cost Murray about GBP200 million over the last 20 years will warn off all but the most stupid potential buyer. There is an economic meltdown in progress- and most people who thought they were rich last year- are worth less than half of that amount now.

ENIC's Joe Lewis lost GBP800 million this year when Bear Sterns collapsed.
He will not be looking for playthings... but real businesses that can help him make that back. He will not be alone.

Lets put it this way, not only am I not optimistic for Murray's future, I am also pretty pessemistic about Rangers future.

Clive, Derek or Timothy, Take yourself back over to KDS or kiddiefiddlerboard.

Your not kidding me
"i don't post on here but i do read the news"

so much information to give at one time

wonder if you would have posted the same if the gap was 1point?

night Clive, Derek or Timothy

:mad:

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:12
Probably a Taig.

But he uses grammar, numbers and pretends to know what he's on about...so will probably be given credence.


Clive, Derek or Timothy, Take yourself back over to KDS or kiddiefiddlerboard.

Your not kidding me
"i don't post on here but i do read the news"

so much information to give at one time

wonder if you would have posted the same if the gap was 1point?

night Clive, Derek or Timothy

:mad:

I've been registered here since the beginning of this month. I am not a huge football fan, but my sympathies have always lain with Rangers. My extended family are more active in supporting the club.

I came on here after reading MIH's accounts that passed across my desk. I thought that a Rangers Fans Forum would have been buzzing with chat about them, but it doesn't seem to have been the case since I joined. Making a first post on a place like this isn't easy you know - you are always going to be re-christened "Declan" at the first keystroke. I didn't want to start a thread being a zero-poster. I have bided my time and waited for the topic to arise before chipping in.

Believe what you will, no great loss either way I suppose.

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 02:15
I've been registered here since the beginning of this month. I am not a huge football fan, but my sympathies have always lain with Rangers. My extended family are more active in supporting the club.

I came on here after reading MIH's accounts that passed across my desk. I thought that a Rangers Fans Forum would have been buzzing with chat about them, but it doesn't seem to have been the case since I joined. Making a first post on a place like this isn't easy you know - you are always going to be re-christened "Declan" at the first keystroke. I didn't want to start a thread being a zero-poster. I have bided my time and waited for the topic to arise before chipping in.

Believe what you will, no great loss either way I suppose.
If you have something to say, go ahead and say it, mate.

New posters always get a hard time if they get controversial early on.

Ride out the storm and enjoy the fun.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:17
If you have something to say, go ahead and say it, mate.

New posters always get a hard time if they get controversial early on.

Ride out the storm and enjoy the fun.

Thank you. As I stated, I'm not a huge football fan myself, I like the game, but don't get much time to watch it. I really don't have a great deal to say on here if I'm honest, but this is a subject I know and understand and I thought I could add to.

doublewhopper
29-12-2008, 02:20
Thank you. As I stated, I'm not a huge football fan myself, I like the game, but don't get much time to watch it. I really don't have a great deal to say on here if I'm honest, but this is a subject I know and understand and I thought I could add to.

So have the accounts of other football fans landed on your desk too then?

Perhaps you could re-assure us, perhaps its not too unreasonable to assume many other clubs are in more dire straits than Rangers? Hearts, for example, would make interesting reading, no? It would be odd if it was just Rangers for whom you predicted a gathering storm in 2009.

lothiantrueblue
29-12-2008, 02:21
I've been registered here since the beginning of this month. I am not a huge football fan, but my sympathies have always lain with Rangers. My extended family are more active in supporting the club.

I came on here after reading MIH's accounts that passed across my desk. I thought that a Rangers Fans Forum would have been buzzing with chat about them, but it doesn't seem to have been the case since I joined. Making a first post on a place like this isn't easy you know - you are always going to be re-christened "Declan" at the first keystroke. I didn't want to start a thread being a zero-poster. I have bided my time and waited for the topic to arise before chipping in.

Believe what you will, no great loss either way I suppose.

So within 3 posts your telling us your not a fan.

But as per number 8 we all get a rough ride on here, especially the newcomers.

If you have the mind to post then post away.

But i guess if your not a fan posting won't hold the same appeal.

Mind and post after a positive result for the club as well though.

Although surprised a man with your business acumen and leanings towards Rangers and with your family financially supporting the club you weren't on here bumming up our finances towards the end of last season when we were looking at a possible quadruple.

:D
;)

Nite

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 02:21
Thank you. As I stated, I'm not a huge football fan myself, I like the game, but don't get much time to watch it. I really don't have a great deal to say on here if I'm honest, but this is a subject I know and understand and I thought I could add to.
Curiosity about Rangers is insatiable in this place.

If you can enhance the debate with your insight, you`ll be a welcome contributor.

eleventh floor
29-12-2008, 02:25
I've been registered here since the beginning of this month. I am not a huge football fan, but my sympathies have always lain with Rangers. My extended family are more active in supporting the club.

I came on here after reading MIH's accounts that passed across my desk. I thought that a Rangers Fans Forum would have been buzzing with chat about them, but it doesn't seem to have been the case since I joined. Making a first post on a place like this isn't easy you know - you are always going to be re-christened "Declan" at the first keystroke. I didn't want to start a thread being a zero-poster. I have bided my time and waited for the topic to arise before chipping in.

Believe what you will, no great loss either way I suppose.

I think that your comments will be taken as a wind up by some but I'm sure that if you keep posting then some of the more knowledgeable bears will throw some curve balls at you. I for one do not take an interest in the financial aspects as I know little about it but I am interested to find out more. As I said earlier though, you could have attached this to any club at this time

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:29
So have the accounts of other football fans landed on your desk too then?

Perhaps you could re-assure us, perhaps its not too unreasonable to assume many other clubs are in more dire straits than Rangers? Hearts, for example, would make interesting reading, no? It would be odd if it was just Rangers for whom you predicted a gathering storm in 2009.

No, I haven't seen any other accounts. The MIH accounts were passed to me because the person who passed them to me knew of my roots.

I would imagine that Hearts are in a real mess too. However, their owner also owns the bank to which the club owes money. Yeah, you try to work that one out.

I do know that at the start of December, 8 EPL clubs were up for sale and the city was rife with rumours that Abramovich wants out of Chelsea. Everyone is feeling this recession badly, even the normally rich EPL.

bilkobear
29-12-2008, 02:38
Thank you. As I stated, I'm not a huge football fan myself, I like the game, but don't get much time to watch it. I really don't have a great deal to say on here if I'm honest, but this is a subject I know and understand and I thought I could add to.

The trouble is that that which you claim to know so much about, is such an inexact science/discipline, that what anyone says about it, can now be taken with a pinch of salt.
I think we have all learned that at least, if nothing else those last twelve months. :D

It was an interesting post nonetheless.

jcEK
29-12-2008, 02:42
I dont think Rangers will ever go bust despite what celtic supporters want to believe

However i would worry that in the last share issue or whatever it was dressed
up as SDM had to put in >£56 mil and supporters put in <700,000.

SDM want his money back and the team and supporters will have to pay.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 02:46
The trouble is that that which you claim to know so much about, is such an inexact science/discipline, that what anyone says about it, can now be taken with a pinch of salt.
I think we have all learned that at least, if nothing else those last twelve months. :D

It was an interesting post nonetheless.

True. Very true.

I'm just one insignificant view in the financial world. My view though is, that without a rapid improvement in the UK economy, I give MIH 12 months to live.

Guys like Nassim Taleb or Warren Buffett actually did warn in 2004 that the world is heading for a credit crisis. In 2005... they were saying the same thing... but nothing happened. In 2006... same story... nothing happened.
Only at the end of 2007 did the shit hit the fan.

The bank I work for was roundly criticised in the banking community for not getting involved in the blossoming sub-prime market. Its all about views I guess...

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:01
right my tuppence... Hearts are in a huge financial hole, from what i have heard they MUST sell the best players in there squad as soon as possible.. Rangers may owe money, but so does EVERY Scottish club in one way or another, in fact every team in the EPL owe vast sums too, the difference is that they get far more money via BSKYB...

14-15 years ago the Taigs nearly went bust its a fact!, they where saved by that Candian ****wit, i really, truly do not believe that Rangers would go bust, the banks would not allow it, why destroy one of your largest and most influencial customers? can you imagine what would happen to the bank that foreclosed on Rangers??? and anyways i suspect even if the club became the property of the bank, they would sell us on to someone who would care for the club cause if those damned taigs can find someone to bail them out, i am damn sure that Rangers can!!

and for any shit stirring taigs looking in, Rangers will NEVER go bust, your Shit stadium awill fall down upon your ears first before that day, so GET OVER IT!!!

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 03:05
right my tuppence... Hearts are in a huge financial hole, from what i have heard they MUST sell the best players in there squad as soon as possible.. Rangers may owe money, but so does EVERY Scottish club in one way or another, in fact every team in the EPL owe vast sums too, the difference is that they get far more money via BSKYB...

14-15 years ago the Taigs nearly went bust its a fact!, they where saved by that Candian ****wit, i really, truly do not believe that Rangers would go bust, the banks would not allow it, why destroy one of your largest and most influencial customers? can you imagine what would happen to the bank that foreclosed on Rangers??? and anyways i suspect even if the club became the property of the bank, they would sell us on to someone who would care for the club cause if those damned taigs can find someone to bail them out, i am damn sure that Rangers can!!

and for any shit stirring taigs looking in, Rangers will NEVER go bust, your Shit stadium awill fall down upon your ears first before that day, so GET OVER IT!!!

I don't think Rangers FC will ever completely die, don't misunderstand me here. I do think that there will be a lot of pain to come before the club are re-born under a new regime. It might be similar to an Airdrie United type of situation.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:11
I don't think Rangers FC will ever completely die, don't misunderstand me here. I do think that there will be a lot of pain to come before the club are re-born under a new regime. It might be similar to an Airdrie United type of situation.

Rangers will NEVER die, and to compare Airdrie Utd, well i am sorry but thats like comparing chalk and cheese, most people in this country could not have gave a feck about Airdrie, sad as that is but Rangers are a different kettle of fish! how many people where in Manchester? how many were at Ibrox? how many were cheering the team on in the UEFA cup final?? in total, Millions, how many supporters do we have worldwide, many of them are millionaires, look at Jim McCOLL, or Tom Hunter, i truly believe that IF Rangers ever got into any trouble someone would step in!,

anyways for a club in so called financial trouble, we seem to be spending a lot of money??

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:21
While there are Rangers supporters, the club wont die.

mate the way Murray and co are carrying on there wont be many supporters in a year or 2, its gating bad they dont give a f**k about the club or the supporters. its not that far away lots of fans are at the end hear with all the constant shit labelled to them . :(

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 03:23
Rangers will NEVER die, and to compare Airdrie Utd, well i am sorry but thats like comparing chalk and cheese, most people in this country could not have gave a feck about Airdrie, sad as that is but Rangers are a different kettle of fish! how many people where in Manchester? how many were at Ibrox? how many were cheering the team on in the UEFA cup final?? in total, Millions, how many supporters do we have worldwide, many of them are millionaires, look at Jim McCOLL, or Tom Hunter, i truly believe that IF Rangers ever got into any trouble someone would step in!,

anyways for a club in so called financial trouble, we seem to be spending a lot of money??

I'm not comparing Rangers to Airdrie Utd in any way other than that Airdrie Utd were a club that went bust and enough people cared that they were reborn. Looking at MIH's accounts with some knowledge seems to show no easy way out for either MIH or Rangers FC.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are Rangers really spending a lot of money? It seems that everytime a good player shows himself, he is sold. In fact, MIH's accounts were showing a loss until the last minute - when Alan Hutton was sold to Spurs turning a small loss into a small profit. Something like that is pure vanity. "Yeah, MIH were profitable last year...". And Cuellar? I think the reality of the present is that anytime a reasonable level of profit can be turned on a player under the current regime, the player will be sold.

All negativity stated, Rangers FC are a huge club with a massive fanbase and are a Scottish institution. If the club were to go bust, they would be reborn, no doubt.

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:24
Rangers will NEVER die, and to compare Airdrie Utd, well i am sorry but thats like comparing chalk and cheese, most people in this country could not have gave a feck about Airdrie, sad as that is but Rangers are a different kettle of fish! how many people where in Manchester? how many were at Ibrox? how many were cheering the team on in the UEFA cup final?? in total, Millions, how many supporters do we have worldwide, many of them are millionaires, look at Jim McCOLL, or Tom Hunter, i truly believe that IF Rangers ever got into any trouble someone would step in!,

anyways for a club in so called financial trouble, we seem to be spending a lot of money??

how many want 2 get called a bigot every f***ing day with no one in the club stand up for them ? and get treated like sh*t at there ground ? :(

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:26
a lot of if's and buts, hopefully it will not come to that...

i am still not sure how we didnt make a huge profit last year?? the run to the UEFA cup final? the two cup wins? the Champions league money too, as well as the sale of Hutton all on top of the money from JJB and season tickets/merchandise etc etc???

its weird

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:28
It would have nothing to do with the media, it would be down to us to save the club

and then we would have control ,would it be a bad thing then ? if you look it like that it may just save us from all this shit :)

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 03:28
a lot of if's and buts, hopefully it will not come to that...

i am still not sure how we didnt make a huge profit last year?? the run to the UEFA cup final? the two cup wins? the Champions league money too, as well as the sale of Hutton all on top of the money from JJB and season tickets/merchandise etc etc???

its weird

Rangers FC is only one part of MIH and it's MIH which is in serious trouble.

reader of lost nark
29-12-2008, 03:31
unfortunately nobody knows the value of anything at the moment .....................including rangers... who will be around long after some financial institutions bite the dust .

Asiablue
29-12-2008, 03:31
What a fickle and confused lot we are, on friday everybody was looking forward to beating the yahoos on saturday, we get beat 1-0 and now we are discussing going bankrupt!!! :confused::confused:

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:32
how many want 2 get called a bigot every f***ing day with no one in the club stand up for them ? and get treated like sh*t at there ground ? :(

sorry but i believe as a support we can handle it, i have been getting it from the taigs for most of my life as i suspect most Rangers fans have always done, why does it matter what a few tims with type writers write about us? all i care is that the traditions of the club survive, too many people care about what the press say and do, feck em, feck everyone of them to hell, in the end even if all the clubs non-die hard fans feck off, well the club will still have at lest 25-000 to 30.000 who will turn up i guarantee you that, we will rise again, we will win the league again, i promise you that!!

We ARE the People, No Surrender, they aint just mottos, they are what are written on the heart of every true bluenose, so lets start living up to them

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:33
a lot of if's and buts, hopefully it will not come to that...

i am still not sure how we didnt make a huge profit last year?? the run to the UEFA cup final? the two cup wins? the Champions league money too, as well as the sale of Hutton all on top of the money from JJB and season tickets/merchandise etc etc???

its weird

mate it would probable be good for us if it did , it would give us back a say in the club . sad thinking like this i know .

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 03:34
sorry but i believe as a support we can handle it, i have been getting it from the taigs for most of my life as i suspect most Rangers fans have always done, why does it matter what a few tims with type writers write about us? all i care is that the traditions of the club survive, too many people care about what the press say and do, feck em, feck everyone of them to hell, in the end even if all the clubs non-die hard fans feck off, well the club will still have at lest 25-000 to 30.000 who will turn up i guarantee you that, we will rise again, we will win the league again, i promise you that!!

We ARE the People, No Surrender, they aint just mottos, they are what are written on the heart of every true bluenose, so lets start living up to them

Its only passion like that which will keep the club alive, in my opinion.

Stirling_Bear
29-12-2008, 03:37
sorry but i believe as a support we can handle it, i have been getting it from the taigs for most of my life as i suspect most Rangers fans have always done, why does it matter what a few tims with type writers write about us? all i care is that the traditions of the club survive, too many people care about what the press say and do, feck em, feck everyone of them to hell, in the end even if all the clubs non-die hard fans feck off, well the club will still have at lest 25-000 to 30.000 who will turn up i guarantee you that, we will rise again, we will win the league again, i promise you that!!

We ARE the People, No Surrender, they aint just mottos, they are what are written on the heart of every true bluenose, so lets start living up to them

:agree::agree::thumb:

100% agree - only thing I would point out is that it isn't just the "tims with type writers" that are out to get us - it's politicians, the catholic church, the police and (it feels like) the people who run our club.

Thats all the more reason why No Surrender needs to be adhered to more now than ever before.

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:38
sorry but i believe as a support we can handle it, i have been getting it from the taigs for most of my life as i suspect most Rangers fans have always done, why does it matter what a few tims with type writers write about us? all i care is that the traditions of the club survive, too many people care about what the press say and do, feck em, feck everyone of them to hell, in the end even if all the clubs non-die hard fans feck off, well the club will still have at lest 25-000 to 30.000 who will turn up i guarantee you that, we will rise again, we will win the league again, i promise you that!!

We ARE the People, No Surrender, they aint just mottos, they are what are written on the heart of every true bluenose, so lets start living up to them
open your eyes hear eh, look say 10 years from now how many kids want to be a rangers fan ? rangers are everything that's bad everywhere you look . do you get it now ? i know what your saying mate but can you tell all the young fans the same :(

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:39
no what will keep the club alive is SDM leaving and getting us into sound financial hands, hopefully that day is not to far off...

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:39
:agree::agree::thumb:

100% agree - only thing I would point out is that it isn't just the "tims with type writers" that are out to get us - it's politicians, the catholic church, the police and (it feels like) the people who run our club.

Thats all the more reason why No Surrender needs to be adhered to more now than ever before.

i give up lol

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:40
no what will keep the club alive is SDM leaving and getting us into sound financial hands, hopefully that day is not to far off...

hope your right mate i really do, and soon.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:44
i remember in 1985, i was 9 years old and going to Ibrox, the attendance was maybe 25-30.000 for most games, bad times indeed, in fact those where disheartening times, the club was at its lowest ebb, no money, no hope and seemingly no future and tehn look what happened, you say to me look 10 years into the future?? will young lads still want to come to watch rangers?? well all i can say is that i saw enough young bears in Manchester to give me hope! and look back 10-15 years ago, the exact thing was said of ce*tic... look at them now.

so what if the Catholic Church hate us, they always have, the press hate us WHY DO YOU CARE??? i dont even read the press, i dont give a damn what they say, feck them, we are Rangers and if you dont like it, you know what to do

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:50
i remember in 1985, i was 9 years old and going to Ibrox, the attendance was maybe 25-30.000 for most games, bad times indeed, in fact those where disheartening times, the club was at its lowest ebb, no money, no hope and seemingly no future and tehn look what happened, you say to me look 10 years into the future?? will young lads still want to come to watch rangers?? well all i can say is that i saw enough young bears in Manchester to give me hope! and look back 10-15 years ago, the exact thing was said of ce*tic... look at them now.

so what if the Catholic Church hate us, they always have, the press hate us WHY DO YOU CARE??? i dont even read the press, i dont give a damn what they say, feck them, we are Rangers and if you dont like it, you know what to do

mate we wasn't geting shit from everywhere in 85, this is different i dont like it do you . if your reply is you dont care then your part of the problem .
we need 2 unite as a support and sort all this shit out now . not just sit and hope .

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 03:53
no what will keep the club alive is SDM leaving and getting us into sound financial hands, hopefully that day is not to far off...

Who?

Sorry mate, but what you've said is blind optimism. Which investor in their right mind would invest in a football club right now? An EPL club. Now, find that crazy man and ask him to buy Rangers...

This is an SPL club. You get &#163;38m for being relegated in England - from TV money. Win the title in Scotland and you get &#163;2m.

Factor in the controversy that Rangers find themselves in over songs and over Manchester, etc and it isn't the most attractive investment prospect at this time.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:56
what is your solution??? do u have one? i am all for change!! but as far as i can see there are none until someone buys the club...

oh and in 1985 we where just as hated by the Catholic Church/Taigs and yes the Mhedia, the Rebel has always hated us!! so what if Galloway goes running to the Joke Parliament everytime he gets upset about us, he is a joke himself and most politicians no it.

my solution?
Every Rangers fan stops buying the scum and the Rebel, who actually needs Newspapers in this day and age??
vote for neither SNP or Labour, not sure who you vote for, but if you feel the need to do so, let your MP know that they cant count on your vote, unless they change there attitude towards us.
there are a means and ways to destroy our enemies, and i agree we need to unite, targets these cretins and we WILL win...

LiviBear
29-12-2008, 03:57
The problem we have is that there is no long term plan for the club.

This is what scares me most.

A recession is simply an economic version of survival of the fittest where companies with a strong, viable business plan will survive.

We don't seem to have a plan to grow the business and rely on entry on to the CL or selling a player for profit just to break even.

The greatest asset this club has is its fans and right now they are doing their best to turn us away.

What's the point of having a good marketing plan, scouting system, youth system etc if the club don't care about the customers?

D&C is spot on by saying that Rangers will survive because of the passion of those invloved but if the fans are regularly ostracised and stigmatized this will alienate a future generation of supporters.

It's the lack of a club 'ethos' that concerns me most.

9forme
29-12-2008, 03:57
Who?

Sorry mate, but what you've said is blind optimism. Which investor in their right mind would invest in a football club right now. An EPL club. Now, find that crazy man and ask him to buy Rangers...

This is an SPL club. You get £38m for being relegated in England - from TV money. Win the title in Scotland and you get £2m.

Factor in the controversy that Rangers find themselves in over songs and over Manchester, etc and it isn't the most attractive investment prospect at this time.

best post i have seen mate and only 12 posts :)

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 03:58
Who?

Sorry mate, but what you've said is blind optimism. Which investor in their right mind would invest in a football club right now. An EPL club. Now, find that crazy man and ask him to buy Rangers...

This is an SPL club. You get £38m for being relegated in England - from TV money. Win the title in Scotland and you get £2m.

Factor in the controversy that Rangers find themselves in over songs and over Manchester, etc and it isn't the most attractive investment prospect at this time.


most analysts feel the slump we as a planet are in now will last at most 1 or 2 years! or do you think longer? as long as the club can ride out the storm we will be ok, and i really dont see Rangers folding like a deck of cards do you???

Blind optimism? no just dont think its as bad as some like to paint it

9forme
29-12-2008, 04:00
there are a means and ways to destroy our enemies, and i agree we need to unite, targets these cretins and we WILL win...


i like it mate we need this soon .

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:03
what is your solution??? do u have one? i am all for change!! but as far as i can see there are none until someone buys the club...

oh and in 1985 we where just as hated by the Catholic Church/Taigs and yes the Mhedia, the Rebel has always hated us!! so what if Galloway goes running to the Joke Parliament everytime he gets upset about us, he is a joke himself and most politicians no it.

my solution?
Every Rangers fan stops buying the scum and the Rebel, who actually needs Newspapers in this day and age??
vote for neither SNP or Labour, not sure who you vote for, but if you feel the need to do so, let your MP know that they cant count on your vote, unless they change there attitude towards us.
there are a means and ways to destroy our enemies, and i agree we need to unite, targets these cretins and we WILL win...


I don't have a solution, no. MIH's accounts show enough to make a basic (and sound) appraisal - they don't show enough detail that offers someone like me the information required to offer up a way ahead.

The stuff you have posted about the media and the labour party may well be relevant to your politics and interests, and of your fellow fans, but it has absolutely nothing to do with RFC and MIH finding a solution to Rangers financial problems or a new owner for the club.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:09
most analysts feel the slump we as a planet are in now will last at most 1 or 2 years! or do you think longer? as long as the club can ride out the storm we will be ok, and i really dont see Rangers folding like a deck of cards do you???

Blind optimism? no just dont think its as bad as some like to paint it

I think longer. I also think the effects will be felt for generations. Lending/borrowing will never be so easy again.

Things can change quickly of course. A mere two years ago, the Royal Bank Of Scotland made more money than every other Scottish business combined. Fast forward two years and they have been propped up by the Government to stop them going under.

People here are talking about "Rangers bust?... never, no way" etc. The Royal Bank Of Scotland was formed in 1727 and employs 140,000 odd people. Yet it happened to them.

Serious reality check time.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:12
the other stuff was just answering a post about how we fight our enemies

the reason SDM will not sell the club (and he has at least 2 offers) is that he refuses to sell below his valuation and he wants to keep all his lucative contracts with the club, catering, security etc etc, the potential new owners wanted to terminate all conta with SDM and his business's, SDM didnt like this and said no, the cancer that is David Murray needs to be removed before Rangers can grow again, but Rangers will survive, i have no doubt...

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:17
the other stuff was just answering a post about how we fight our enemies

the reason SDM will not sell the club (and he has at least 2 offers) is that he refuses to sell below his valuation and he wants to keep all his lucative contracts with the club, catering, security etc etc, the potential new owners wanted to terminate all conta with SDM and his business's, SDM didnt like this and said no, the cancer that is David Murray needs to be removed before Rangers can grow again, but Rangers will survive, i have no doubt...


Where did the "two offers" story come from...?

I rest my case.

Murray may have had offers in the past, even fairly recently, but I doubt he'll get many more, especially any that measure up to his flatly ludicrous demands in this current financial climate. Murray and Rangers may well have to be prised apart by legal documentation.

I have no doubt that Rangers the name will survive this. I just wonder in what form...

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:19
I think longer. I also think the effects will be felt for generations. Lending/borrowing will never be so easy again.

Things can change quickly of course. A mere two years ago, the Royal Bank Of Scotland made more money than every other Scottish business combined. Fast forward two years and they have been propped up by the Government to stop them going under.

People here are talking about "Rangers bust?... never, no way" etc. The Royal Bank Of Scotland was formed in 1727 and employs 140,000 odd people. Yet it happened to them.

Serious reality check time.

RBS made a lot of silly moves in the market and loaned out far to much money, Rangers are a much smaller operation, the money we are talking about here would be change to a company like RBS, i see what you are trying to get across but i still do not believe it will happen, and to be honest unless you can prove that the banks have threatened Rangers i probably never will, do you have such proof?

BenharBear
29-12-2008, 04:20
like that derek and clive poster i dont post a lot myself but ive been reading this thread and i reckon that he is probably a journo shit stirring. it wouldnt surprize me if it was speirs trying to wind us up. murrays accounts have been public for ages yet nobody else has come out with this guff from derek and clive. in fact the city editor of the herald wrote a glowing piece about rangers accounts soon after the agm saying we had made a healthy profit.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:24
Where did the "two offers" story come from...?

I rest my case.

Murray may have had offers in the past, even fairly recently, but I doubt he'll get many more, especially any that measure up to his flatly ludicrous demands in this current financial climate. Murray and Rangers may well have to be prised apart by legal documentation.

I have no doubt that Rangers the name will survive this. I just wonder in what form...

you have not heard the two offers stuff about Tom Hunter? most Rangers fans have...

The Rangers name?
so you dont think Rangers will own Ibrox or Auchenhowie??

Rangers and most Football teams are not huge financial or property companies, at most all Rangers own are the stadium,the training ground and a few houses in the west end.

the support are Rangers... and always will be

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:26
like that derek and clive poster i dont post a lot myself but ive been reading this thread and i reckon that he is probably a journo shit stirring. it wouldnt surprize me if it was speirs trying to wind us up. murrays accounts have been public for ages yet nobody else has come out with this guff from derek and clive. in fact the city editor of the herald wrote a glowing piece about rangers accounts soon after the agm saying we had made a healthy profit.

more than likely mate,in fact much of what he has been saying is the stuff that the Taigs i know have been dreaming about... funny that..

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:28
D&C are you mr Spiers? or a hack from a paper? i would not hold it against you if you where, some days its good to answer our critics

billywizz
29-12-2008, 04:30
more than likely mate,in fact much of what he has been saying is the stuff that the Taigs i know have been dreaming about... funny that..



Its the same shite that has been of the fhuddleboard for ages, usual wishfull thinking from timmy

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:31
like that derek and clive poster i dont post a lot myself but ive been reading this thread and i reckon that he is probably a journo shit stirring. it wouldnt surprize me if it was speirs trying to wind us up. murrays accounts have been public for ages yet nobody else has come out with this guff from derek and clive. in fact the city editor of the herald wrote a glowing piece about rangers accounts soon after the agm saying we had made a healthy profit.

Where is the gain in a journo doing that? My job is altogether a lot more boring than that, mate. Murray's counsel with the media is widely known, it is no surprise to me that it isn't widely reported. The numbers are available (by law they have to be), so read them and come up with a valid argument against what I've said.

The MIH story is all in the cash flow statement. You can play tunes with the Income Statement (Profit and Loss) and the Balance Sheet... but you cannot hide the cash flow. MIH has survived for the last 2-3 years by borrowing money- yet it has reported making profits. You can only legally do this for so long before the numbers must reverse themselves.


The other issue with his inventory is that almost all of it- steel and UK property were purchased at costs which are far higher than the current market price of these assets. To sell their inventory now (to raise cash) will mean having to recongnize the losses which were being hidden by the build up in inventory ("stocks") in recent years. To report a loss would remove the last tissue that spares the banks' embarrassment on MIH.

The inventory is also part of the fiction that is MIH's balance sheet. In addition to Ibrox's valuation and intangible assets which may not have any commercial value, that the inventory is worth so much less than is reported on the books.

Are you arguing against the numbers? Or are you in the "how can this be happening" school of thought? There have been hundreds of cases throughout history of businessmen who have lead everyone on a merry dance only for the smelly stuff to hit the fan before the truth is known. It happens at domestic level too - one of your friends who is driving a Porsche, living in a luxury house, wearing the best threads... and then you discover that the whole thing has been paid for with credit card debt. You end up feeling sorry for him and having to buy him his beers on Friday.

If you are arguing with the numbers, then please do so.



RBS made a lot of silly moves in the market and loaned out far to much money, Rangers are a much smaller operation, the money we are talking about here would be change to a company like RBS, i see what you are trying to get across but i still do not believe it will happen, and to be honest unless you can prove that the banks have threatened Rangers i probably never will, do you have such proof?

The RBS thing was just an example of what can happen to seemingly untouchable large institutions. Lets put it this way though - MIH owe roughly the same amount of money as RBS will have to repay the Govt. this year. A not insignifcant amount.

sinko
29-12-2008, 04:34
no the club will just have to down-size even more, and i dont just mean on the park, its a timmy myth that Rangers could go to the wall...

Exactly. I'm fed up with their pish being continually posted on here. Same myth, different year. I'm always amazed when i read the latest incarnation of this story that some taig went to so much bother to make it up.

Dr_Seuss
29-12-2008, 04:34
The fact is our custodian is already morally bankrupt when it comes to Rangers . Most of the asset stripping has already been done to prop up MIH. I have no doubt Dodgy Dave will have monies squirrelled away in offshore accounts and family trusts to see himself alright and would pull the plug if MIH was going t1ts up.

Rangers however would survive because there are enough people who care, and as others have pointed out the whole game in Scotland would be in the grubber if it got to that stage

fourbaw
29-12-2008, 04:35
Highly unlikely - but given that the clubs major creditor is effectively sir david murray (or his holding companies) if it were to happen then he would lose control of the club - so expect him to take greater comtrol if finances do get tight - good budiness to ensure he gains 99% control again at v little cost

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:38
I'll dissappear back into the shadows at this point then. Perhaps I'll be banned, perhaps not. No matter really, I only really joined up because I thought that there would be a large discussion about Rangers financial future ongoing and it hasn't materialised in my time here (that I've seen). I would have liked to have joined in with that.

However, it seems that if one posts information, easily checkable elsewhere, that if it isn't what the average fan wants to hear, then one is either a journo or a tim. I thought it was them who were supposed to be paranoid?

LiviBear
29-12-2008, 04:40
I'll dissappear back into the shadows at this point then. Perhaps I'll be banned, perhaps not. No matter really, I only really joined up because I thought that there would be a large discussion about Rangers financial future ongoing and it hasn't materialised in my time here (that I've seen). I would have liked to have joined in with that.

However, it seems that if one posts information, easily checkable elsewhere, that if it isn't what the average fan wants to hear, then one is either a journo or a tim. I thought it was them who were supposed to be paranoid?

When's the crunch point in this scenario?

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 04:44
When's the crunch point in this scenario?

The golden question. Potentially when the merger between HBOS and Lloyds is finalised - sometime after that when the accounts are analysed.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 04:47
D&C on these Boards, anything that seems to put Rangers into a bad light, is usually discounted however these facts that you talk about, why are you the only one who seems to think that it will Destroy Rangers? or do you think everyone else is living in denial?

finally if what you say comes to pass,which i doubt, then i suspect that something would be done, maybe sold to someone for a reasonable amount of money, not the amount that SDM want's...

you say that the Rangers Name will be all that survives, but in truth Rangers are not really the stadium or the training ground or the players on the pitch, the Rangers are those die hard supporters who turn up on a cold winters night in games against Partick thistle or St mirren, this isnt being emotional its a fact, Rangers would not be the the club it is without the support, and the current 'custodians' better damn not forget it.

LiviBear
29-12-2008, 04:50
The golden question. Potentially when the merger between HBOS and Lloyds is finalised - sometime after that when the accounts are analysed.

I meant immediate cash flow mate.

Is there an imminent problem?

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 05:04
D&C on these Boards, anything that seems to put Rangers into a bad light, is usually discounted however these facts that you talk about, why are you the only one who seems to think that it will Destroy Rangers? or do you think everyone else is living in denial?

finally if what you say comes to pass,which i doubt, then i suspect that something would be done, maybe sold to someone for a reasonable amount of money, not the amount that SDM want's...

you say that the Rangers Name will be all that survives, but in truth Rangers are not really the stadium or the training ground or the players on the pitch, the Rangers are those die hard supporters who turn up on a cold winters night in games against Partick thistle or St mirren, this isnt being emotional its a fact, Rangers would not be the the club it is without the support, and the current 'custodians' better damn not forget it.


I think a lot of people don't have the financial nous to understand the depth of the issue, that's all. Just as I don't understand mechanics or DIY, for example, some don't understand this stuff, especially the high level financial stuff. All I have posted is opinion based on factual figures.

I know Rangers is the fans more than anything. How can the fanbase hope to grow if there is no club to follow, or the club is seriously downsized?



I meant immediate cash flow mate.

Is there an imminent problem?


The only thing I know for certain is that Rangers do not have two ha'pennies to rub together at the moment. They cannot buy their way out of trouble.

IMHO, the spending splurge this summer was supposed to see Rangers 6-8 points ahead by now... allowing them to sell the heroes who got them here for a profit. That this has not happened means that they will still have to downsize, but without the benefit of a wind of media raving about the talent throughout their squad. It is a liquidation of shop-soiled goods... but no less important for them to reduce the wage bill and raise some cash.

Of all of the outcomes- only one is certain: RFC's day's of buying success are over... at least for the next 3-4 years.

Insolvency? Not the most likely outcome, but certainly cannot be ruled out.

Conditions for the liquidation of Rangers:

- Recession in UK property and global steel extends throughout 2009
i.e. MIH cannot sell their steel or property inventory at a profit. (probability of say... 60%)
- Lloyds itself faces a cash crunch (probably as a result of being persuaded to buy the shitpile that is HBOS... probability of say- 30%)

These two combined events would mean that Lloyd's ability to keep MIH on life support to wait for steel prices to jump and repay all of their debt on schedule would be compromised. If Lloyds needs cash, they could be forced to call in more of their corporate bad debt... forcing liquidations. That is when it would all go tits up for MIH.

More than ever I am convinced that if MIH goes tits up, then Rangers will follow. This is because the conditions for Lloyds to call in the MIH debt would mean that the UK economy has taken another significant leg down... soaking up much of the wealth of every business, businessman and entrepreneur. There will be no takers for a business which cost Murray over GBP200m during his time in charge.

Probability of that happening: 60% x 30% = 18% slightly less than 5/1 odds.
Not likely... but far from impossible.

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 05:17
I think a lot of people don't have the financial nous to understand the depth of the issue, that's all. Just as I don't understand mechanics or DIY, for example, some don't understand this stuff, especially the high level financial stuff. All I have posted is opinion based on factual figures.

I know Rangers is the fans more than anything. How can the fanbase hope to grow if there is no club to follow, or the club is seriously downsized?





The only thing I know for certain is that Rangers do not have two ha'pennies to rub together at the moment. They cannot buy their way out of trouble.

IMHO, the spending splurge this summer was supposed to see Rangers 6-8 points ahead by now... allowing them to sell the heroes who got them here for a profit. That this has not happened means that they will still have to downsize, but without the benefit of a wind of media raving about the talent throughout their squad. It is a liquidation of shop-soiled goods... but no less important for them to reduce the wage bill and raise some cash.

Of all of the outcomes- only one is certain: RFC's day's of buying success are over... at least for the next 3-4 years.

Insolvency? Not the most likely outcome, but certainly cannot be ruled out.

Conditions for the liquidation of Rangers:

- Recession in UK property and global steel extends throughout 2009
i.e. MIH cannot sell their steel or property inventory at a profit. (probability of say... 60&#37;)
- Lloyds itself faces a cash crunch (probably as a result of being persuaded to buy the shitpile that is HBOS... probability of say- 30%)

These two combined events would mean that Lloyd's ability to keep MIH on life support to wait for steel prices to jump and repay all of their debt on schedule would be compromised. If Lloyds needs cash, they could be forced to call in more of their corporate bad debt... forcing liquidations. That is when it would all go tits up for MIH.

More than ever I am convinced that if MIH goes tits up, then Rangers will follow. This is because the conditions for Lloyds to call in the MIH debt would mean that the UK economy has taken another significant leg down... soaking up much of the wealth of every business, businessman and entrepreneur. There will be no takers for a business which cost Murray over GBP200m during his time in charge.

Probability of that happening: 60% x 30% = 18% slightly less than 5/1 odds.
Not likely... but far from impossible.

i know people who would argue that this is not true, he paid 6 million for the club, and shelled out a lot in transfers fee's but how much has his companies made out of rangers in the past 20 years????

Just like SDM did not start the Rangers revolution (which some people claim), i would not take any financial quotes that SDM makes as the truth...

but at the end of the day, who knows.... not us little people certainly

reader of lost nark
29-12-2008, 05:33
trouble for mim would result in the rangers asset being sold to a trustworthy entity unknown to the mhedia beforehand .......when it comes to the clubs turnover you would be amazed at what banks will do to get it or keep it ...... I'll use royal bank of scotland as an example

Oatlands
29-12-2008, 07:32
Every business in Scotland has the possibility of bankrupcy in this economy. Football clubs are not immune. Rangers at one time had a great connection with the Bank of Scotland at the director level. The amazing thing is that under a Prime Minister who is both a Scot and a banker, BOS has ceased to exist. Its finished and I think that is an incredibly sad fact. With the bank connection gone there is no special realtionship now. The public school educated English pricks who run the new HBOS and now HBOS/Lloyds could care less about a Scottish football club. They did the merger for their own financial survival. If they have a customer in serious trouble they will take every advantage to steal any assets used as collateral and thats the situation that David Murray and Rangers are in now.

bob1873
29-12-2008, 08:02
no the club will just have to down-size even more, and i dont just mean on the park, its a timmy myth that Rangers could go to the wall...

On balance I don't think we'd go bust - but you cannot rule it out. Rangers are part of the Murray 'empire' and there are strong rumours that they are short of cash. That is a real danger if true businesses fail due to lack of cash not lack of profit - the two are different. Given Murray is now mainly a 'property magnate' and property is falling in value then that makes him an 'unattractive' risk to banks. The Murray Group are heavily borrowed (leveraged) and to add to the concern bank with HBOS. It is definately not a good mix. So whilst I don't think we will go 'pop' I think everything that can be sold will be and that means last season was our best shot at stopping a rebel 10 in a row, unless someone buys the club. The buyer will need cash as few (if any banks) will want to wade in with lending for the purchase of a football club right now.

bob1873
29-12-2008, 08:04
Every business in Scotland has the possibility of bankrupcy in this economy. Football clubs are not immune. Rangers at one time had a great connection with the Bank of Scotland at the director level. The amazing thing is that under a Prime Minister who is both a Scot and a banker, BOS has ceased to exist. Its finished and I think that is an incredibly sad fact. With the bank connection gone there is no special realtionship now. The public school educated English pricks who run the new HBOS and now HBOS/Lloyds could care less about a Scottish football club. They did the merger for their own financial survival. If they have a customer in serious trouble they will take every advantage to steal any assets used as collateral and thats the situation that David Murray and Rangers are in now.

They did the merger with 'Gay Gordon' holding a gun to their heads as the other option was insolvency - read Robert Preston on the BBC. Also I work in Financial Services (not HBOS) it is a well known fact in the trade!

calvinist
29-12-2008, 08:15
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

hmmmmm.....

very similiar posts with very similiar points appear on kerrydale street from time to time...........

Sam_English
29-12-2008, 08:25
so would we end up just another spl team,like aberdeen,dundee utd etc.would that be acceptable to the support,im not sure it would

I would say that we're already heading in that direction and the majority of the support seem oblivious to the direction in which our club is heading.

jicre
29-12-2008, 08:31
While there are Rangers supporters, the club wont die.

So why are WE continually allowing those that are heading US in that direction to remain in place?

lone_ranger
29-12-2008, 08:32
Personally I think all clubs need to suffer pain.Unfortunately cubs seem to be immune to the disciplines that are forced on businesses in the real world.A lot of clubs are financially insolvent and would probably be be facing the winding up process .In football there appears to be special allowance and tolerance made for utter financial and commercial mis-management.

I am not too sure if Italy still applies stringent financial rules that prohibit poor clubs who cannot give gaurantees as to their financial stability but I would want to see such measures in place here

Football is heading for a real shake out and I am actually welcoming it.

bilkobear
29-12-2008, 09:24
D&C on these Boards, anything that seems to put Rangers into a bad light, is usually discounted however these facts that you talk about, why are you the only one who seems to think that it will Destroy Rangers? or do you think everyone else is living in denial?

finally if what you say comes to pass,which i doubt, then i suspect that something would be done, maybe sold to someone for a reasonable amount of money, not the amount that SDM want's...

you say that the Rangers Name will be all that survives, but in truth Rangers are not really the stadium or the training ground or the players on the pitch, the Rangers are those die hard supporters who turn up on a cold winters night in games against Partick thistle or St mirren, this isnt being emotional its a fact, Rangers would not be the the club it is without the support, and the current 'custodians' better damn not forget it.

Woolworths have just gone under.
Their customers just shrugged their shoulders and went to the shop next door.
That is the difference with Rangers, Rangers are not like a normal business, we are not customers.
David Murray has always got this wrong.
However if the brown stuff hits the fan, Rangers will still continue, the loyalty of the support is guaranteed 100%.
In fact if Murray left there would be a huge upsurge in enthusiasm as many disillusioned supporters would return and be re-energised by a welcome change at the Club.
Rangers have a guaranteed income that is the envy of most businesses.
We will survive.
Manchester saw 200,000 reasons why we should be optimistic, and yet I know more Rangers supporters (older Bears mostly) who have at one time or another gone to games who weren't in Manchester than who were?
We are a huge family.

buster
29-12-2008, 09:39
The gravity of the credit crunch for the general economy will come to roost in 2009.

I wrote a post in the lounge on the 6th of October which for the opening line had..."The days of a "mad max" type of society draws closer."

http://forum.*****************/showthread.php?t=474690

All bets are off, suddenly the unimaginable becomes possible.

RBOS very nearly went under
Iceland are bankrupt
etc., etc

Scottish football is going to have a very chill wind blow through it and it won&#180;t be pretty.

Hearts are the team that must be favourites to be the first to go into administration.

When the january transfer window opens, expect a lot of teams trying to offload players and prices by the end of the window coming right down.

I&#180;d be amazed if we net spend, in essence it would be SDM throwing oil on the fire. Although welcome at the time, spending the amount of money he did back in the summer may not have been a good idea, especially when you look how it was spent.

D4RN-L
29-12-2008, 09:44
Yet another bollox, no thought gone into it, over reaction thread on Follow Follow.

One bad result and it's turmoil, one win and it's champions.


FFS!

buster
29-12-2008, 09:49
Yet another bollox, no thought gone into it, over reaction thread on Follow Follow.

One bad result and it's turmoil, one win and it's champions.


FFS!

The financial problems are a reality, the depth of how they effect Rangers is up for debate.

This is not a Barry Ferguson or Walter thread which can depend on the latest result.

The only way results will significantly change things is if we are able to qualify for next seasons CL.

big drummer
29-12-2008, 10:12
Cant see it happening.Woolworths was a shop.Any bank you can change if you want or need to.Rangers a way of life.Its in your heart and soul

rocker
29-12-2008, 10:21
Rangers a way of life.Its in your heart and soul

Not if you're David Murray.

Tom Vallance
29-12-2008, 10:35
Nothing much to say here, apart from the fact that the views of the poster Derek&Clive are, and have been repeated almost exactly on Celt*c boards for years now. I'm not an accountant, I haven't seen the Club's accounts. I have, though, seen everything that this poster says repeatedly posted on Celt*c sites for years. Make of it what you will.

buster
29-12-2008, 10:40
Nothing much to say here, apart from the fact that the views of the poster Derek&Clive are, and have been repeated almost exactly on Celt*c boards for years now. I'm not an accountant, I haven't seen the Club's accounts. I have, though, seen everything that this poster says repeatedly posted on Celt*c sites for years. Make of it what you will.

The OP makes points with regard to the current situation and some of what he says is true, eg. SDM´s companies being highly leveraged and that the banks and businesses are in unprecedented financial turmoil that has a lot to do with bad debts.

As I said above, how it effects Rangers in the months and years to come is up for debate and it isn´t only Rangers that will be effected, the whole of society, never mind football will feel the chill.

Tom Vallance
29-12-2008, 10:45
The OP makes points with regard to the current situation and some of what he says is true, eg. SDM´s companies being highly leveraged and that the banks and businesses are in unprecedented financial turmoil that has a lot to do with bad debts.

As I said above, how it effects Rangers in the months and years to come is up for debate and it isn´t only Rangers that will be effected, the whole of society, never mind football will feel the chill.

Yep, there is definitely an updated 'credit crunch' angle added to what is still essentially the same Yahoo wet dream that has been circulated for years.

There's no doubt that there are tough times ahead, not just for football clubs. I have no idea as to how genuine the poster's access to accounts information is, I'm merely pointing out that I have read very, very similar things on Yahoo sites for years - almost verbatim in fact.

D4RN-L
29-12-2008, 10:55
I think there's more chance of increased debt for a couple of years rather than out right destruction FFS.
It's all about revenue v debt and right now there is significant revenue to service the debt.
Let's not read the tarrier sites and take them as fact.

si72
29-12-2008, 10:59
so would we end up just another spl team,like aberdeen,dundee utd etc.would that be acceptable to the support,im not sure it would

thats exactly the level the team is at the now,just an average fecking team:mad::o

davyloyal
29-12-2008, 11:05
Cant see it happening.Woolworths was a shop.Any bank you can change if you want or need to.Rangers a way of life.Its in your heart and soul

Yes, let's all just shout "No Surrender" and "WATP" and all our financial worries will simply disappear into the ether.:roll:

themaz
29-12-2008, 11:26
when the news is full of banks struggling and high street names calling in the administrators, why would any football team be any different

so so true

BenharBear
29-12-2008, 14:18
Nothing much to say here, apart from the fact that the views of the poster Derek&Clive are, and have been repeated almost exactly on Celt*c boards for years now. I'm not an accountant, I haven't seen the Club's accounts. I have, though, seen everything that this poster says repeatedly posted on Celt*c sites for years. Make of it what you will.

i said earlier that i thought it was a journo shit stirring. it could be somebody like speirs reading there guff and pasting it on here or getting a accountant pal to do his dirty work. this derek and clive poster is trying to make us all take the bate so just ignore him and all the other new posters spredding doomand gloom.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 18:05
Blah blah Tim blah blah journo, etc.

Back to discussing the figures and what they mean for anyone who is interested...


Rangers FC's profit and losses under Murray are a matter of public record. Unlike the business editor of The Herald, businessmen with the means to buy a club of Rangers stature will not simply buy Murray's press releases (which are just a selective editing of his accounts to present which ever data might put the best shine on his business). They will do their own due diligence... and truth is transparent to anyone with experience in financial statement analysis.

There is no evidence that we- as a club- can make a sustained profit. In the last 11 years (1996-2007), Rangers FC had a combined loss of GBP120m. If we were to take the emotion out of this subject and look at the financial numbers without looking at the emotional ties we have to the club, any turnaround specialist would say: "downsize or die".
(Celtic are only 2 seasons of no champions' league football from being in a of a mess too- if that is any consolation).

I do not believe the stories of Tom Hunter's interest. He has had years of opportunity (when, frankly, the deal would have looked much more appealing). I understand that Hunter, like most of us, has seen his financial position weaken considerably in the last 6 months. Entrepreneurs are more consumed with businesses that can help make good their recent losses- rather than looking for vanity projects.

Failure to win the league this year will give us a monumental task to qualify for the CL. Another year without CL money will be a disaster and will just make RFC look even less appealing to any investor. Murray's patience for pumping money into a business, which in recent years must seem like a millstone around his neck, must be running thin. His son is on record saying that MIH is "over exposed to Scottish football".

If Murray either tires of continuing to fund investments (which to be fair- he has invested a lot in the club, and gets very little credit for his losses) or simply runs out of money due to problems in steel and UK property... the crunch could be severe.
If Celtic continue to qualify for the CL group stage (regardless of how poorly they perform once there)- and we are locked out... it will open a financial gulf.

This is not an attractive situation for any investor. With about GBP27m in debt apportioned to Rangers (out of MIH's GBP770m debt)... any new buyer must deal with the prospect of losing a lot of money or being hounded by the support for cutting back on just about everything- salaries, transfers, facilities, etc. The overwhelming majority of Rangers supporters would be outraged at the idea of retrenching for a few years to try to rebuild organically... and any new owner's life in Scotland could be made a misery.

A rich foreigner? Abramovich just last week had to get a bail out from the Russian government! Oil has dropped from $147/bbl to about $39 today. Most stock markets are down 40&#37; this year.

There are not many people with money to burn in football.

I really fear that we are between a rock and a hard place.

wild bill hickok
29-12-2008, 18:23
Are you trying to tell me SDM is £770m in debt?!!!!:eek:

Steve-Tor
29-12-2008, 18:24
Yes, let's all just shout "No Surrender" and "WATP" and all our financial worries will simply disappear into the ether.:roll:

You are right.

And every day there are three sympathy seeking threads for folk giving up their season ticket.

But still

WATP

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 18:27
Are you trying to tell me SDM is £770m in debt?!!!!:eek:

Yeah. Incredible, isn't it?

steviemac355
29-12-2008, 18:34
So have the accounts of other football fans landed on your desk too then?

Perhaps you could re-assure us, perhaps its not too unreasonable to assume many other clubs are in more dire straits than Rangers? Hearts, for example, would make interesting reading, no? It would be odd if it was just Rangers for whom you predicted a gathering storm in 2009.

Could have sworn he said the Accounts of MIH not the accounts of Rangers.

Annan Bear
29-12-2008, 18:35
Are you trying to tell me SDM is £770m in debt?!!!!:eek:

The most recent published accounts (FOR THE YEAR ENDED 31 JANUARY 2007) on MIH's website (http://www.murray-international.co.uk/documents/MURRAYREPORTS2007.pdf) shows this line

Net debt at end of year (677,959) - not sure exactly what that means though, it's been a while since I've studied accounting, but the reasoning is explained earlier on in the report so I wouldn't be too worried about it, every business has some sort of debt.



The Group debt facilities have recently been revised to
take account of our growth and transactional activity. At
the year end, the ratio of debt to total assets was 69%
compared to 63%the previous year, reflecting investments
made during the year. Bank of Scotland continues to
provide these facilities under a relationship which extends
from lender to partner throughout our activities. We look
forward to developing our partnership further as we explore
new ways to capitalise on our combined skills and
resources.

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 18:37
Blah blah Tim blah blah journo, etc.

Back to discussing the figures and what they mean for anyone who is interested...


Rangers FC's profit and losses under Murray are a matter of public record. Unlike the business editor of The Herald, businessmen with the means to buy a club of Rangers stature will not simply buy Murray's press releases (which are just a selective editing of his accounts to present which ever data might put the best shine on his business). They will do their own due diligence... and truth is transparent to anyone with experience in financial statement analysis.

There is no evidence that we- as a club- can make a sustained profit. In the last 11 years (1996-2007), Rangers FC had a combined loss of GBP120m. If we were to take the emotion out of this subject and look at the financial numbers without looking at the emotional ties we have to the club, any turnaround specialist would say: "downsize or die".
(Celtic are only 2 seasons of no champions' league football from being in a of a mess too- if that is any consolation).

I do not believe the stories of Tom Hunter's interest. He has had years of opportunity (when, frankly, the deal would have looked much more appealing). I understand that Hunter, like most of us, has seen his financial position weaken considerably in the last 6 months. Entrepreneurs are more consumed with businesses that can help make good their recent losses- rather than looking for vanity projects.

Failure to win the league this year will give us a monumental task to qualify for the CL. Another year without CL money will be a disaster and will just make RFC look even less appealing to any investor. Murray's patience for pumping money into a business, which in recent years must seem like a millstone around his neck, must be running thin. His son is on record saying that MIH is "over exposed to Scottish football".

If Murray either tires of continuing to fund investments (which to be fair- he has invested a lot in the club, and gets very little credit for his losses) or simply runs out of money due to problems in steel and UK property... the crunch could be severe.
If Celtic continue to qualify for the CL group stage (regardless of how poorly they perform once there)- and we are locked out... it will open a financial gulf.

This is not an attractive situation for any investor. With about GBP27m in debt apportioned to Rangers (out of MIH's GBP770m debt)... any new buyer must deal with the prospect of losing a lot of money or being hounded by the support for cutting back on just about everything- salaries, transfers, facilities, etc. The overwhelming majority of Rangers supporters would be outraged at the idea of retrenching for a few years to try to rebuild organically... and any new owner's life in Scotland could be made a misery.

A rich foreigner? Abramovich just last week had to get a bail out from the Russian government! Oil has dropped from $147/bbl to about $39 today. Most stock markets are down 40&#37; this year.

There are not many people with money to burn in football.

I really fear that we are between a rock and a hard place.
Rangers has a large element within it which refuses to believe that the club could ever founder because it wouldn`t be allowed to, but although there is a minority in the support who would build a new club from the ashes of the old one, if Rangers were going down and the books were too soaked in red ink for anyone to be able to bail the club out, tens of thousands of Rangers supporters would be shocked to the very core of their being.

That`s the reality check that will finally bring home the extent of the financial state of the club under the present chairman; the fact that he is a businessman, not a deity, the fact that he`s flawed, not perfect, and the harsh and grim reality that unseen forces no more guide Rangers than they do anyone else.

We`ve been the so-called establishment club for so long we have come to believe we are immortal.

The Royal Bank recently failed, and was propped up by taxpayer pounds, and the Bank of Scotland has failed too, and it will disappear forever under the guise of a merger.

Only recently, many believed that the above paragraph could never have been written, either in 2008, 2108 or 2208, but the evidence has confounded everyone.

As we head into a depression, not a recession, there will be many unexpected casualties along the way, and much as I`d love to think that Rangers could weather any storm, I know that this isn`t the case - not after two decades of Sir David Murray at the helm.

If the sums don`t add up, we`ll go down.

laudrup71
29-12-2008, 18:42
Yep, there is definitely an updated 'credit crunch' angle added to what is still essentially the same Yahoo wet dream that has been circulated for years.

There's no doubt that there are tough times ahead, not just for football clubs. I have no idea as to how genuine the poster's access to accounts information is, I'm merely pointing out that I have read very, very similar things on Yahoo sites for years - almost verbatim in fact.

I understand what you are saying - but ust because it's appeared elsewhere doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't make it right either, but we should be aware of the risks.

I don't know what Derek&Clive is, tim, journo or Bear, but I do think we should at least take what he says seriously.

As far as I'm aware the MIH debt figures are about right (if I recall correctly fom reading the Herald). Given the current precarious situation regarding the credit crunch, if banks get nervous our "ground zero" could easily happen.

At the moment Celtc's debt figures are pretty low, ours are pretty high. That lends credence to the "2 years of CL football" statement.

To be honest, I'm a little worried about the current situation, espeially given that HBOS are our bankers and will, no doubt be trying to make their own position are secure as possible. Anything that gets in their way will be stamped out of existance sharpish.

Imagine the worst did happen and the administrators were called in - a 10 points deduction could see us fail to get ANY European cash, and that would cause a problem. Mass unemployment must have an effect on our ST sales, merchandise sales etc. As must not only the loss of money should JJB go bust but the costs of setting up retail stores again.

There are many many ifs buts and maybe's but just because we are a football club doesn't make us immune to the evil of creditors and banks.

If Murray falls over I think we could be at great risk. Fergus McCann saw an opportunity to make a truck load of cash. That's why he invested. Wealthy people in general are wealthy because they hold on to their cash. Is there a sugar dady out there that could take over the loans so carelessly got under different circumstance and with no eye on our long term future?

I'm terrible for worrying, but I do think that there could be trouble ahead, I just hope we're protected.

Derek&Clive
29-12-2008, 19:03
We`ve been the so-called establishment club for so long we have come to believe we are immortal.

The Royal Bank recently failed, and was propped up by taxpayer pounds, and the Bank of Scotland has failed too, and it will disappear forever under the guise of a merger.

Only recently, many believed that the above paragraph could never have been written, either in 2008, 2108 or 2208, but the evidence has confounded everyone.

As we head into a depression, not a recession, there will be many unexpected casualties along the way, and much as I`d love to think that Rangers could weather any storm, I know that this isn`t the case - not after two decades of Sir David Murray at the helm.

If the sums don`t add up, we`ll go down.

A healthy dose of realism in that, from one of the more eloquent members of this forum in my limited time here. Thanks.



I understand what you are saying - but ust because it's appeared elsewhere doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't make it right either, but we should be aware of the risks.

I don't know what Derek&Clive is, tim, journo or Bear, but I do think we should at least take what he says seriously.

As far as I'm aware the MIH debt figures are about right (if I recall correctly fom reading the Herald). Given the current precarious situation regarding the credit crunch, if banks get nervous our "ground zero" could easily happen.

At the moment Celtc's debt figures are pretty low, ours are pretty high. That lends credence to the "2 years of CL football" statement.

To be honest, I'm a little worried about the current situation, espeially given that HBOS are our bankers and will, no doubt be trying to make their own position are secure as possible. Anything that gets in their way will be stamped out of existance sharpish.

Imagine the worst did happen and the administrators were called in - a 10 points deduction could see us fail to get ANY European cash, and that would cause a problem. Mass unemployment must have an effect on our ST sales, merchandise sales etc. As must not only the loss of money should JJB go bust but the costs of setting up retail stores again.

There are many many ifs buts and maybe's but just because we are a football club doesn't make us immune to the evil of creditors and banks.

If Murray falls over I think we could be at great risk. Fergus McCann saw an opportunity to make a truck load of cash. That's why he invested. Wealthy people in general are wealthy because they hold on to their cash. Is there a sugar dady out there that could take over the loans so carelessly got under different circumstance and with no eye on our long term future?

I'm terrible for worrying, but I do think that there could be trouble ahead, I just hope we're protected.

For clarification once again, I have Rangers sympathies rather than having the audacity to term myself as a "fan". My family have always been Rangers daft and my connection to the club is mostly through them. Its a father to son tradition in my family. My raison d'être on here is my interest in the financial plight of the club and I joined up expecting ongoing raging debate on the topic that I have been surprised to see lacking. Anyone, and I mean anyone with any financial nous can look at MIH's books and see trouble screaming out at them.

I stated earlier in this thread that it is my opinion that only HBOS' own perilous position is keeping MIH afloat. HBOS, on the eve of finalising a merger with Lloyds, cannot afford a GBP400m write-off. Llloyds may well take a different view of course.

No amount of emotional appeal or strength of numbers will make any difference to hard-ass bankers at this point in time. These are people wholly motivated by the bottom line - its all that matters in their world, more so no than ever before.

bilkobear
29-12-2008, 19:55
Rangers has a large element within it which refuses to believe that the club could ever founder because it wouldn`t be allowed to, but although there is a minority in the support who would build a new club from the ashes of the old one, if Rangers were going down and the books were too soaked in red ink for anyone to be able to bail the club out, tens of thousands of Rangers supporters would be shocked to the very core of their being.

That`s the reality check that will finally bring home the extent of the financial state of the club under the present chairman; the fact that he is a businessman, not a deity, the fact that he`s flawed, not perfect, and the harsh and grim reality that unseen forces no more guide Rangers than they do anyone else.

We`ve been the so-called establishment club for so long we have come to believe we are immortal.

The Royal Bank recently failed, and was propped up by taxpayer pounds, and the Bank of Scotland has failed too, and it will disappear forever under the guise of a merger.

Only recently, many believed that the above paragraph could never have been written, either in 2008, 2108 or 2208, but the evidence has confounded everyone.

As we head into a depression, not a recession, there will be many unexpected casualties along the way, and much as I`d love to think that Rangers could weather any storm, I know that this isn`t the case - not after two decades of Sir David Murray at the helm.

If the sums don`t add up, we`ll go down.



Maybe now it will seem much clearer why Scum FC were only too ready to resort to every dirty trick in the book to win the SPL last year.
From the top down they were prepared to conspire in lies and underhand gutter behaviour to avoid a crunch fixture at an inconvenient time.
Survival of the fittest rarely has room for the morals of the Manse.
Now perhaps also the constant stream of decisions that go for them and against us can be seen in a clearer backdrop.
Failure to get that Champions league money each season may well be failure to survive full stop.

Rangers may well face downsizing and a reality check is something that most of us may also face in the coming months and years.
However second after my family come Rangers.
I don't much care about Scotland or indeed the UK which are now just pieces of real estate and no longer the ancestral home of my genes.
Rangers however is my tribe and represents for me something uniquely identifying to my place in the universe.
The Club has always been a huge part of my life.
Much like sex, I rarely go six seconds without thinking about them. ;)
Rather than see the Club go down I would be willing to sell my own family silver to keep Rangers alive, something which I am sure I share with thousands of others, and something which nearly every other business I use can't rely on.
I hope that it never comes to it, but in the Support itself, the survival of the Club has a nuclear option.

Tom Vallance
29-12-2008, 20:09
I understand what you are saying - but ust because it's appeared elsewhere doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't make it right either, but we should be aware of the risks.

I don't know what Derek&Clive is, tim, journo or Bear, but I do think we should at least take what he says seriously.

As far as I'm aware the MIH debt figures are about right (if I recall correctly fom reading the Herald). Given the current precarious situation regarding the credit crunch, if banks get nervous our "ground zero" could easily happen.

At the moment Celtc's debt figures are pretty low, ours are pretty high. That lends credence to the "2 years of CL football" statement.

To be honest, I'm a little worried about the current situation, espeially given that HBOS are our bankers and will, no doubt be trying to make their own position are secure as possible. Anything that gets in their way will be stamped out of existance sharpish.

Imagine the worst did happen and the administrators were called in - a 10 points deduction could see us fail to get ANY European cash, and that would cause a problem. Mass unemployment must have an effect on our ST sales, merchandise sales etc. As must not only the loss of money should JJB go bust but the costs of setting up retail stores again.

There are many many ifs buts and maybe's but just because we are a football club doesn't make us immune to the evil of creditors and banks.

If Murray falls over I think we could be at great risk. Fergus McCann saw an opportunity to make a truck load of cash. That's why he invested. Wealthy people in general are wealthy because they hold on to their cash. Is there a sugar dady out there that could take over the loans so carelessly got under different circumstance and with no eye on our long term future?

I'm terrible for worrying, but I do think that there could be trouble ahead, I just hope we're protected.

I agree with that. I personally think there are stormy waters ahead for football in general, and that obviously includes us. I've been very careful not to call Derek&Clive a Tim for that reason. It is, as I say, very similar to the wet dream stuff that has appeared on Tim sites for many years and we are still here. The doomsday stuff is a bit premature I think - it seems from this thread that we are already calling in the administrators. :eek:

Posted just after a defeat by the Mhanks too. :eek:

B and N
29-12-2008, 20:45
I'm no financial expert but it seems obvious to me that SDM's core business (steel supply) must be on it's arse given the collapse in the economy and the consequential massive downturn in the construction industry. I don't know what it would mean to the club if MIH went bust but I'm guessing it wouldn't be great.

That said I find it impossible to believe that we could go to the wall. The nett effect of any SDM financial meltdown would IMHO mean that the club has to be run on an even tighter budget than it is at present but I'm sure this will be the same for every club in the country.

It is actually possible that the financial meltdown may be to our benefit. The EPL is a massive bubble that looks that it may be about to burst. Falling Sky TV advertising revenues, half-empty stadiums, no buyer for Newcastle United, major shirt sponsors going bust etc point to the possibility of a radical rethink of the way EPL clubs are financed and run. This may then bring some decent quality players back within our wages structure.

whitecarlos
29-12-2008, 20:48
Anyone think this thread is riddled with dark forces?

laudrup71
29-12-2008, 21:41
I agree with that. I personally think there are stormy waters ahead for football in general, and that obviously includes us. I've been very careful not to call Derek&Clive a Tim for that reason. It is, as I say, very similar to the wet dream stuff that has appeared on Tim sites for many years and we are still here. The doomsday stuff is a bit premature I think - it seems from this thread that we are already calling in the administrators. :eek:

Posted just after a defeat by the Mhanks too. :eek:

I was thinking that too after seeing another couple of posts, that we take an idea and run with it until it almost becomes that it's happening. Then we move on to arguments about what should happen after that!

I'm naturally a worrier, and to be honest every time I hear any sort of rumour it worries me to an extent.

Did Celtc just beat us? post traumatic stress must have erased that from my mind. :mad: I all seriousness, I'm just glad I'm on holiday, because I doubt I could restrain myself.

In one way I'm trying to take it all in the context of "the bigger picture". Maybe the defeat will actually spur the chairman into some action to prevent the title running away from us. I don't think that the "title race" is over by a long shot, but maybe this just raises the stakes and will enforce a new concentration over our club. I hope so.

munro182
29-12-2008, 21:45
It would never nver never happen...far too big a club! someone would buy it and there is plenty more before us...motherwell....hamilton....cally thistle etc!

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 21:47
Why would it never happen?

laudrup71
29-12-2008, 21:52
Anyone think this thread is riddled with dark forces?

I'm not so sure. Most "timposters" have a rather less subtle method for getting attention. D&C's posts have seemed pretty balanced and straightforward.

Granted, the timing sucks a little, but I guess he couldn't help with the timing any more than each passing day seems to get worse for the oil and construction industries. And the real estate markets.

As long as posts are thoughtful, respectful and based on reality I guess it doesn't matter too much as the other, "real" posters then get an opportunity to discus the scenarios outlined.

If Celtc fans want to masquerade as people with the best interests of Rangers at heart, to be honest, I fail to see where their wind up is - surely they're just deluding themselves? I doubt that any sentient Rangers man or woman would rely soley on the word of a fellow poster for inducing a panic.

Likewise I remember that the guy who "broke" the Cuellar story on here was given a hell of a time for posting something that later turned out to be 100% true. Based on that I'll reserve my judgement and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Nothing so far has sounded like tim wind up. Especially not in the manner he's put it.

If it IS a wind up it's a stupid and pyrrhic one.

TheEA
29-12-2008, 22:06
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of &#163;158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While &#163;158m seems healthy read on.

2. &#163;800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (&#163;250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20&#37; then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now &#163;160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +&#163;158m but -&#163;2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was &#163;120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

I note with some interest Derek & Clive's -&#163;2m figure.

I was told some weeks ago that Minty's whole shooting match was &#163;2m away from being over that line where profit becomes loss and you owe more than you are worth, I think the technical term is "insolvent".

In the fast moving world of property values maybe during that couple of weeks the situation has worsened?? :eek:

"Interesting" isn't the word I'd have used.

If true, frightening would be more appropriate methinks.

Diggerz
29-12-2008, 22:41
The answer to the question is 'no'. Remember Timmy was an hour away from going kaput and Fungus' offer was forced through. In all probability the same would happen with Rangers should the panic button be pressed.

Zoo
29-12-2008, 22:45
This will and never should happen to Rangers

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 22:46
The answer to the question is 'no'. Remember Timmy was an hour away from going kaput and Fungus' offer was forced through. In all probability the same would happen with Rangers should the panic button be pressed.
Rangers has been on the market for almost four years, and no-one has bitten.

Now the market is shocking, and even wealthy people are having to look after their pounds and dollars more carefully.

When the banks closed in on Celtic`s old board, they knew wee Fergus was waiting.

Who`s waiting to save Rangers?

gogo25
29-12-2008, 22:49
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.



You kid no one D&C

bluedawg
29-12-2008, 22:52
True. Very true.

I'm just one insignificant view in the financial world. My view though is, that without a rapid improvement in the UK economy, I give MIH 12 months to live.

Guys like Nassim Taleb or Warren Buffett actually did warn in 2004 that the world is heading for a credit crisis. In 2005... they were saying the same thing... but nothing happened. In 2006... same story... nothing happened.
Only at the end of 2007 did the shit hit the fan.

The bank I work for was roundly criticised in the banking community for not getting involved in the blossoming sub-prime market. Its all about views I guess...

The banking community, despite its staid buttoned down appearance, is full of big swinging dicks that have speculated wildly with other peoples money.
They are are now hat in hand asking governments all over the world to bail them out.
( bail out = government either prints money until it is less valuable than toilet paper, which is a tax on the prudent & those on fixed incomes or just increase taxes outright)

SDM & MIH, though on a much larger scale, have made mistakes very similar to many common homeowners.

Re-financing loans/mortgages to borrow as much as possible against over inflated property values.

A little cash flow problem...
Can not make the monthly payment...
Property value has dropped & is not worth what is owed on it....
Can't sell the property.....to anyone..
Borrower defaults, goes into bankruptcy.....
Banking community has written so many bad loans, banks fail worldwide....

MIH might get protection as steel plants & manufacturing are very necesary for armies and for economic recovery.
Sir David should move to his beloved French vinyard if this occurs, assuming he still owns a vinyard.
Knighthood for business acumen my arse !

I agree that this would cause chaos at the club if MIH fails.

However, RFC will survive no matter what financial calamity occurs.
It may be in a different form, different league , different owner, RST owned, whatever.
I do not expect Ibrox to close down anytime soon.
Things are cyclical.
50 K + are willing to fill Ibrox every other weekend.
Someone will figure out how to make this club financially viable.
You should know the level of passion & commitment people have for this club.

WATP

lothiantrueblue
29-12-2008, 22:55
Anyone think this thread is riddled with dark forces?

Yes, and i posted as much last night.

The board in recent days has saw a high number of earl haigs outed.

calvinist
29-12-2008, 22:59
Yes, and i posted as much last night.

The board in recent days has saw a high number of earl haigs outed.

as i said earlier on this thread the op's comments are more or less a direct lift from kerrydale street and i didn't care for his comment earlier suggesting that the only intelligent,articulate posters on FF were the ones who agreed with him,however thats for another day.....

i found another thread relating to finances make of it what you will

http://forum.*****************/showthread.php?t=480921&highlight=kerrydale

laudrup71
29-12-2008, 23:09
Rangers has been on the market for almost four years, and no-one has bitten.

Now the market is shocking, and even wealthy people are having to look after their pounds and dollars more carefully.

When the banks closed in on Celtic`s old board, they knew wee Fergus was waiting.

Who`s waiting to save Rangers?

The important thing at that point was that McCann wanted to take over the club with a proviso - he expected, nay demanded, that he'd make a profit on the deal. And he did. He walked away several million pounds richer (was it £45 million he made?) Whatever, he took a health profit from his venture.

To my mind that's why he invested. Not because he was a "supporter". Equally it's why Brian Dempsey ran away crying - he didn't have the cash and was just another moderately wealthy blowhard playing with the big boys.

You're right that no one has bitten in 4 years. I suspect that's because no one can see where profit will had. The debt position is such that a profit might be a risky to very difficult proposition. Murray has bled the club dry. He's had his money from it and lack of true forward planning has made our task an unenviable one.

This being said, it's perennial argument surrounding ourselves and Celtc - that one or the other is on the brink.

I guess that a lot depends on Rangers maximum value too - as a going concern and football club or broken into smaller chunks.

I've no doubt that Rangers would prevail in one form or another, but it could be a difficult few years.

This all being said, it's conjecture. And even given that, I think that as a club, and going concern we'd have a lot of things on our side.

1. An invite into the EPL. Let's face it, the EPL is dying. Clubs are struggling and as SKY look to gain maximum return from a failing product at some juncture an exec is going to have the bright idea of inviting Rangers and Celtc to the party. "The battle of Britain", the UK league. It would capture imaginations. And make SKY a truckload of cash for their investment.

2. A large fan base. And a jaded one. What better to maximise value from? A re-energised Rangers fan base would generate a lot of cash.

3. Worldwide brand.

The downsides?

1. Manchester.

2. The negative media outlook.

3. UEFA trying to stop it.

The first two won't matter if SKY want it. The third? After the UK football team plays, approval will be a formality. It'll also be prevailed upon for political reasons. Gordon Brown can stick the Union to the SNP and damage them politically if Rangers and Celtc are in the EPL.

Murray's empire failing isn't something that we should want. I think it could be a nightmare scenario, but then again, there is a possibility that with the ability to renegotiate the debt and secure under another owner rather than writing it off then a new owner may be able to visualise the potential of Rangers and the bank could avoid a nasty debt write off.

Number_Eight
29-12-2008, 23:29
The important thing at that point was that McCann wanted to take over the club with a proviso - he expected, nay demanded, that he'd make a profit on the deal. And he did. He walked away several million pounds richer (was it £45 million he made?) Whatever, he took a health profit from his venture.

To my mind that's why he invested. Not because he was a "supporter". Equally it's why Brian Dempsey ran away crying - he didn't have the cash and was just another moderately wealthy blowhard playing with the big boys.

You're right that no one has bitten in 4 years. I suspect that's because no one can see where profit will had. The debt position is such that a profit might be a risky to very difficult proposition. Murray has bled the club dry. He's had his money from it and lack of true forward planning has made our task an unenviable one.

This being said, it's perennial argument surrounding ourselves and Celtc - that one or the other is on the brink.

I guess that a lot depends on Rangers maximum value too - as a going concern and football club or broken into smaller chunks.

I've no doubt that Rangers would prevail in one form or another, but it could be a difficult few years.

This all being said, it's conjecture. And even given that, I think that as a club, and going concern we'd have a lot of things on our side.

1. An invite into the EPL. Let's face it, the EPL is dying. Clubs are struggling and as SKY look to gain maximum return from a failing product at some juncture an exec is going to have the bright idea of inviting Rangers and Celtc to the party. "The battle of Britain", the UK league. It would capture imaginations. And make SKY a truckload of cash for their investment.

2. A large fan base. And a jaded one. What better to maximise value from? A re-energised Rangers fan base would generate a lot of cash.

3. Worldwide brand.

The downsides?

1. Manchester.

2. The negative media outlook.

3. UEFA trying to stop it.

The first two won't matter if SKY want it. The third? After the UK football team plays, approval will be a formality. It'll also be prevailed upon for political reasons. Gordon Brown can stick the Union to the SNP and damage them politically if Rangers and Celtc are in the EPL.

Murray's empire failing isn't something that we should want. I think it could be a nightmare scenario, but then again, there is a possibility that with the ability to renegotiate the debt and secure under another owner rather than writing it off then a new owner may be able to visualise the potential of Rangers and the bank could avoid a nasty debt write off.
A number of things could happen if the club is heading for the rocks, including hitting them!

The EPL might want us, an Atlantic League might fire up or a wealthy owner might materialise, but the point that every one of us should bear in mind and give due contemplation to is that Rangers could go belly-up and with no-one able or willing to save the day.

I cannot grasp the mentality that believes Rangers are immune from financial failure. Half of Scotland would celebrate the demise of Rangers and fifty years from now the club would be spoken of as though it was some kind of vile monstrosity that shamed the nation.

The belief that we cannot die is as much an enemy to us as our more easily identifiable foes because it encourages a sit back and wait approach rather than taking some responsibility for the club.

Proclamations of WATP alongside pleas for benevolent billionaires to come to our rescue is mind-numbingly embarrassing and cringeworthy, but that`s where we`re at.

It doesn`t really matter if this subject is raised by friend or foe because in the world in which we live now, every Rangers fan should be keeping a close watch on the club`s accounts and the holding company`s accounts too.

The High Street has seen some famous names go this year, and with more to follow, and the story of the banking industry in 2008 would have seemed impossibly far-fetched when we celebrated Hogmanay just twelve months ago.

Concerned supporters of all clubs need to be aware of the financial health of their team, and we aren`t an exception to that.

MG44
29-12-2008, 23:48
A number of things could happen if the club is heading for the rocks, including hitting them!

The EPL might want us, an Atlantic League might fire up or a wealthy owner might materialise, but the point that every one of us should bear in mind and give due contemplation to is that Rangers could go belly-up and with no-one able or willing to save the day.

I cannot grasp the mentality that believes Rangers are immune from financial failure. Half of Scotland would celebrate the demise of Rangers and fifty years from now the club would be spoken of as though it was some kind of vile monstrosity that shamed the nation.

The belief that we cannot die is as much an enemy to us as our more easily identifiable foes because it encourages a sit back and wait approach rather than taking some responsibility for the club.

Proclamations of WATP alongside pleas for benevolent billionaires to come to our rescue is mind-numbingly embarrassing and cringeworthy, but that`s where we`re at.

It doesn`t really matter if this subject is raised by friend or foe because in the world in which we live now, every Rangers fan should be keeping a close watch on the club`s accounts and the holding company`s accounts too.

The High Street has seen some famous names go this year, and with more to follow, and the story of the banking industry in 2008 would have seemed impossibly far-fetched when we celebrated Hogmanay just twelve months ago.

Concerned supporters of all clubs need to be aware of the financial health of their team, and we aren`t an exception to that.

Nail on head mate.This is similar to the person who knows he's ill but won't go to the doctor in case he tells him what he already knows. We are in a potential situation where to acknowledge what might happen is too terrible for a lot of fans to contemplate and therefore they avoid the issue rather than face it, understandable in the circumstances but we need to be aware and have as much knowledge about the club's finances from people who are in the business of analysing what the true position might be. This won't come from the board so we need some of our own to research this for us and explain just where we stand.

Eddie Badabing
29-12-2008, 23:52
Anyone think this thread is riddled with dark forces?

I haven't seen so many taigs posting since I was last on the Huddleboard.

Phuck off the lot of ye.

usbear
29-12-2008, 23:53
i'll say it again

if the club ends up in the hands of creditors this is a perfect opportunity for the trust to step in and possibley buy the club at a discount

whats the trusts game plan if this were to happen?

i'm very curious because as much as i admire the trust i am pessimistic that fans can run a club

AppleBear1976
29-12-2008, 23:55
one last thing i would like to add to this, is that if Rangers did go bust (god forbid), what would happen to the rest of Scottish football? Cel*ic all alone in a league where NOONE has any money, 50.000+ Rangers fans, missing from the leagues finances, would Setanta hang around? in my opinion IF Rangers floundered, Scottish football would die...

Number_Eight
30-12-2008, 00:05
i'll say it again

if the club ends up in the hands of creditors this is a perfect opportunity for the trust to step in and possibley buy the club at a discount

whats the trusts game plan if this were to happen?

i'm very curious because as much as i admire the trust i am pessimistic that fans can run a club
Sir Dave should speak to the RST about such a possibility.

Fans would own the club - not run it.

Professionals would run it - answerable to the ownership - the fans.

deedle
30-12-2008, 00:05
i'll say it again

if the club ends up in the hands of creditors this is a perfect opportunity for the trust to step in and possibley buy the club at a discount

whats the trusts game plan if this were to happen?

i'm very curious because as much as i admire the trust i am pessimistic that fans can run a club

The RST has never said that its members would 'run the club'.

In the hypothetical case of a 'fans' takeover', the best people for each job would be head-hunted.

I am pessimistic that the current regime can run the club.

Baxtersbigtoe
30-12-2008, 00:15
with the ever increasing costs the club have in the current climate,and the real possibility of no champions league money for a few seasons given the way the playing side is going,is it conceivable that rangers fc could be no more.is the chairman waiting on a dubai consortium making him an offer he can't refuse that's not going to happen.my question is are we in danger here.we are constantly downsizing and weakening the playing staff to manage the debt,yet the manager is being allowed to spunk money on mediocre players.sir david has already had to be bailed out due to his financial mismanagement.is he taking the club down a road here that we might not recover from.i would be very interested in responses from anyone with some financial accumen here and anyone who can see where we will be long term.thoughts please


By whom?

Himself.

Asshole comment.

BTW pressing the "shift" key at the same time as typing a letter gives you
a capital. Try it sometime.

9forme
30-12-2008, 00:20
one last thing i would like to add to this, is that if Rangers did go bust (god forbid), what would happen to the rest of Scottish football? Cel*ic all alone in a league where NOONE has any money, 50.000+ Rangers fans, missing from the leagues finances, would Setanta hang around? in my opinion IF Rangers floundered, Scottish football would die...

have you had a think about it then mate , lets hope it never do come to the bust thing ;)

usbear
30-12-2008, 00:31
Sir Dave should speak to the RST about such a possibility.

Fans would own the club - not run it.

Professionals would run it - answerable to the ownership - the fans.



The RST has never said that its members would 'run the club'.

In the hypothetical case of a 'fans' takeover', the best people for each job would be head-hunted.

I am pessimistic that the current regime can run the club.


thanks lads i'm not trying to be argumentative but

how do 20,000 supporters make decisions?

how do 20,000 supporters select the people to run the club?

are the trust prepared for this scenario and to be in the face of the lenders should this happen?

if murray considered the trust to be a serious contender for ownership he would have began negotiations ages ago

murray seems to have nothing but comtempt for the trust based on his put up or shut up comment

i'm guessing the banks will have to decide because murray won't

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 00:38
thanks lads i'm not trying to be argumentative but

how do 20,000 supporters make decisions?

how do 20,000 supporters select the people to run the club?

are the trust prepared for this scenario and to be in the face of the lenders should this happen?

if murray considered the trust to be a serious contender for ownership he would have began negotiations ages ago

murray seems to have nothing but comtempt for the trust based on his put up or shut up comment

i'm guessing the banks will have to decide because murray won't


How do FC Barcelona manage it? Very well, thanks very much. 120,000+ Barcelona members vote for the President every few years - I am not 100% on the finer workings, but FCB is owned by the members and its running by democratically elected professionals.

Surely this is the dream of all large football clubs?

If anyone on here is financially sound, knows some who are, etc, then surely there will never EVER be a better time than now to try to put together a conglomerate, do the due dilligence and try to bid for control of the club.

inthejuju
30-12-2008, 00:40
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).
4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.

I'm puzzled by your assertion that the Ibrox valuation is ludicrous when by your own admission you are not an expert in this field.


I think a lot of people don't have the financial nous to understand the depth of the issue, that's all. Just as I don't understand mechanics or DIY, for example, some don't understand this stuff, especially the high level financial stuff. All I have posted is opinion based on factual figures.

I know Rangers is the fans more than anything. How can the fanbase hope to grow if there is no club to follow, or the club is seriously downsized?





The only thing I know for certain is that Rangers do not have two ha'pennies to rub together at the moment. They cannot buy their way out of trouble.

IMHO, the spending splurge this summer was supposed to see Rangers 6-8 points ahead by now... allowing them to sell the heroes who got them here for a profit. That this has not happened means that they will still have to downsize, but without the benefit of a wind of media raving about the talent throughout their squad. It is a liquidation of shop-soiled goods... but no less important for them to reduce the wage bill and raise some cash.

Of all of the outcomes- only one is certain: RFC's day's of buying success are over... at least for the next 3-4 years.

Insolvency? Not the most likely outcome, but certainly cannot be ruled out.

Conditions for the liquidation of Rangers:

- Recession in UK property and global steel extends throughout 2009
i.e. MIH cannot sell their steel or property inventory at a profit. (probability of say... 60%)
- Lloyds itself faces a cash crunch (probably as a result of being persuaded to buy the shitpile that is HBOS... probability of say- 30%)

These two combined events would mean that Lloyd's ability to keep MIH on life support to wait for steel prices to jump and repay all of their debt on schedule would be compromised. If Lloyds needs cash, they could be forced to call in more of their corporate bad debt... forcing liquidations. That is when it would all go tits up for MIH.

More than ever I am convinced that if MIH goes tits up, then Rangers will follow. This is because the conditions for Lloyds to call in the MIH debt would mean that the UK economy has taken another significant leg down... soaking up much of the wealth of every business, businessman and entrepreneur. There will be no takers for a business which cost Murray over GBP200m during his time in charge.

Probability of that happening: 60% x 30% = 18% slightly less than 5/1 odds.
Not likely... but far from impossible.

The 60% probability of not making a profit on the property inventory would be true if it was all acquired say within the last two years. I don't know the detail but I think this is highly unlikely unless you can prove to the contrary.

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 00:50
I'm puzzled by your assertion that the Ibrox valuation is ludicrous when by your own admission you are not an expert in this field.

Well, do you know of any other sports clubs with need for a 50,000 all seater stadium in Glasgow? Or, could you imagine an alternative use for the stadium? It's worth the land it stands on to anyone except Rangers FC. It would actually be worth more commercially with the stadium demolished. £120m for a few acres of Govan does seem a bit of a stretch, no?




The 60% probability of not making a profit on the property inventory would be true if it was all acquired say within the last two years. I don't know the detail but I think this is highly unlikely unless you can prove to the contrary.

Again, its just an opinion based on an educated guess. No more, no less.

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 00:58
have you had a think about it then mate , lets hope it never do come to the bust thing ;)

what do you mean by that?? i still maintain that Rangers will never go bust no matter what some seem to wish, both on here and on the Fhuddleboard!!

Rangers will be here after i have left this mortal coil...

my point is that Scottish football will be dead before that would happen, and no 'financial sh*t stirring' on here will persaude me other wise, i refer you to one of my earlier comments which i will post again.

bluedawg
30-12-2008, 00:58
i'll say it again

if the club ends up in the hands of creditors this is a perfect opportunity for the trust to step in and possibley buy the club at a discount

whats the trusts game plan if this were to happen?

i'm very curious because as much as i admire the trust i am pessimistic that fans can run a club

Could the RST actually buy Rangers ?

Tend to doubt it.

number of RST members x annual dues x number of RST years in existance + interest on invested monies + fund raising cash = not enough to buy Rangers

perhaps a bank loan ?:p

The RST will be a force but only in time.

RST MEMBER

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 01:00
sorry but i believe as a support we can handle it, i have been getting it from the taigs for most of my life as i suspect most Rangers fans have always done, why does it matter what a few tims with type writers write about us? all i care is that the traditions of the club survive, too many people care about what the press say and do, feck em, feck everyone of them to hell, in the end even if all the clubs non-die hard fans feck off, well the club will still have at lest 25-000 to 30.000 who will turn up i guarantee you that, we will rise again, we will win the league again, i promise you that!!

We ARE the People, No Surrender, they aint just mottos, they are what are written on the heart of every true bluenose, so lets start living up to them

And i damn well mean every word of it!! not if theres any tim interlopers in tonght... feck off!!:mad:

usbear
30-12-2008, 01:04
Could the RST actually buy Rangers ?

Tend to doubt it.

number of RST members x annual dues x number of RST years in existance + interest on invested monies + fund raising cash = not enough to buy Rangers

perhaps a bank loan ?:p

The RST will be a force but only in time.

RST MEMBER

the bank could assign the loan if the rst demonstrated the ability to pay it back...that's providing there were no other takers of course

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 01:05
Could the RST actually buy Rangers ?

Tend to doubt it.

number of RST members x annual dues x number of RST years in existance + interest on invested monies + fund raising cash = not enough to buy Rangers

perhaps a bank loan ?:p

The RST will be a force but only in time.

RST MEMBER

(Perhaps) they aren't a strong force right now, but if they are the de facto trusted fans group, then they are in a reasonable position. Any conglomerate of businessmen who are seeking to get the fans onside with any project they wish to seek backing for could do a lot worse than turn to the RST for that backing. The RST may not have a huge membership right now (I don't know, pure speculation on my part), but it would grow exponentially if they were in a true position to play a part in the future of Rangers FC (and by that, I don't mean some vanity meetings with the current head honcho of MIH).

9forme
30-12-2008, 01:07
what do you mean by that?? i still maintain that Rangers will never go bust no matter what some seem to wish, both on here and on the Fhuddleboard!!

Rangers will be here after i have left this mortal coil...

my point is that Scottish football will be dead before that would happen, and no 'financial sh*t stirring' on here will persaude me other wise, i refer you to one of my earlier comments which i will post again.

[QUOTE=Originally Posted by AppleBear1976 View Post
one last thing i would like to add to this, is that if Rangers did go bust (god forbid)[/QUOTE]

just thought you had another think that's all, with what you said.
anything i said was if aswell mate.
so im a tim now then lol

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 01:11
just thought you had another think that's all, with what you said.
so im a tim now then lol

never said you where, just get Pissed off on here by people misquoting or reading in to stuff what people say, stuff that was not meant.

everybody is entitled to there opinion, i have mine and others have theres, but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is, but Hopefully that future is bright and very much Orange!! :)

9forme
30-12-2008, 01:14
never said you where, just get Pissed off on here by people misquoting or reading in to stuff what people say, stuff that was not meant.

everybody is entitled to there opinion, i have mine and others have theres, but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is, but Hopefully that future is bright and very much Orange!! :)

hope your right about the future. :)

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 01:20
never said you where, just get Pissed off on here by people misquoting or reading in to stuff what people say, stuff that was not meant.

everybody is entitled to there opinion, i have mine and others have theres, but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is, but Hopefully that future is bright and very much Orange!! :)

Mate, I'm not wanting to get in your face here, but I have to speak up about this...

I wouldn't dream of posting on a football thread on here, because simply my view is not worth hearing - I have no expertise about football. The kind of comment you'd here me come out with at a match or watching telly in a pub would be "just...KICK IT!!!" - that's the level we are talking about.

I stick to an area I understand and this is it. Your optimism is charming and quaint, but it is also nonsensical. You have made some valid comments about Rangers not being allowed to die, etc. However, I DO know what's on David Murray's mind:-

Two things in fact.

1) "Aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening..."

2) That vineyard could do with a state of the art security system being installed for my imminent departure from these shores forever.

Number_Eight
30-12-2008, 01:24
(Perhaps) they aren't a strong force right now, but if they are the de facto trusted fans group, then they are in a reasonable position. Any conglomerate of businessmen who are seeking to get the fans onside with any project they wish to seek backing for could do a lot worse than turn to the RST for that backing. The RST may not have a huge membership right now (I don't know, pure speculation on my part), but it would grow exponentially if they were in a true position to play a part in the future of Rangers FC (and by that, I don't mean some vanity meetings with the current head honcho of MIH).
This has been on here before, but you may not have seen it ...



Clubs owned and run by their members are already a European reality

Barcelona, Real Madrid and many German teams show that it is not only the mega rich who can be successful

Phil French(Chief Executive of Supporters Direct)

Tuesday December 20, 2005

The Guardian

As another week of European football passes by, attention is once again turning to the ownership of clubs as the media pore over an international Who's Who of wealthy families and individuals rumoured to be circling Europe's elite. Not a week goes by without a club being linked with a buyout or takeover of some sort.

Many sceptics dismiss supporter ownership or control as something for clubs with no ambition in the lower leagues and argue that clubs the size of Chelsea and Manchester United will never succumb to the principles of democratic control. So will we ever see a mutual organisation or a club with democratic membership compete with the big guns?

Well, it may surprise you to learn we already have. Of the clubs in the next round of European competition seven have solid democratic foundations. Perhaps the best known is Barcelona, which belongs to and is run by its 102,000 members. Every four years they choose a president and a board of directors who manage the club; they have the right to speak and to vote.

Nor are they alone in Spain. Athletic Bilbao, Osasuna and Real Madrid are also democratic/mutual organisations, who hold quadrennial elections allowing their members to help determine the future direction of the club.

Most German clubs are structured as members' clubs with a supervisory board elected by members, who are match-going fans. That board generally selects the make-up of the management board that runs the club on a day-to-day basis and is responsible for the football and non-football sides of club activities.

Of the top division in the Bundesliga, six clubs including SV Hamburg and Schalke, now second and fourth in the table, are purely member associations. Interestingly, the one club that has got into debt is Borussia Dortmund, now stock-exchange listed, who plummeted from European champions in 1997 to near-extinction in 2005.

The rest, by and large, have two entities, a company and an association, and even the private limited companies are minimum 51% owned by the members' association. That figure is a rule of the German FA, which requires this minimum to be held by the members' club, keeping the control with fans.

This goes a long way towards promoting good governance and responsible representation, something overlooked by the Burns report, the structural review of the FA, which failed even to recommend supporter representation on the FA Council let alone its main board.

So where does Uefa fit into this picture? The European Council's Nice declaration of 2000 (often used as last line of defence against the unwelcome attention of the European Commission's competition directorate) states that the specificity of sport is only applicable if football is run "on the basis of a democratic and transparent method of operation".

This declaration regrettably has no legal basis, but at a recent meeting of sports ministers in Leipzig, convened by the British minister Richard Caborn, a draft text was produced, with Uefa outlining the key principles of what will form a Europe-wide sports policy. Nestled in the heart of that text - which in part examined the ownership models of clubs - was a fundamental commitment to look at establishing a European-wide Supporters' Trust movement drawing on the expertise and success of Supporters Direct.

So now Europe's key decision makers in both football and politics are combining to take the principles of democracy and good corporate governance seriously. This one meeting could see in one of the most significant policy developments for European football and sport in general.

Our job is to turn the democratic ideal into reality. If the Supporters' Trust movement keeps growing at current rates and more countries follow suit, then Supporters Direct could in the words of Uefa "go a very long way to reclaiming the agenda for football".

inthejuju
30-12-2008, 01:28
Well, do you know of any other sports clubs with need for a 50,000 all seater stadium in Glasgow? Or, could you imagine an alternative use for the stadium? It's worth the land it stands on to anyone except Rangers FC. It would actually be worth more commercially with the stadium demolished. £120m for a few acres of Govan does seem a bit of a stretch, no?


The stadium is valued on a depreciated replacement cost basis.

The value with this specialist type of property inherently lies with the current user. What is the value of say a secondary comprehensive school? Or a public library? Not many people looking to buy either in their current use but they still have a value based on a DRC basis and count towards local authority assets.

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 01:29
sorry but you are 'getting in my face' to quote you, i am not stupid, i know that the club is poorly run, however the facts that you put forward may be right/may be wrong but as someone else has said, these have been on the Cel*ic boards for months now, and they have predicted financial meltdown, which the club has not seen yet!

so unless you can show us all physical proof that the club, not MIH is going down the swanee river, please stop acting like the school swat who thinks he knows more than everyone else!! this may not be your intention but thats the way you are coming across...

you have a right to your opinion, but please respect the right of others to theres.

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 01:32
Mate, I'm not wanting to get in your face here, but I have to speak up about this...

I wouldn't dream of posting on a football thread on here, because simply my view is not worth hearing - I have no expertise about football. The kind of comment you'd here me come out with at a match or watching telly in a pub would be "just...KICK IT!!!" - that's the level we are talking about.

I stick to an area I understand and this is it. Your optimism is charming and quaint, but it is also nonsensical. You have made some valid comments about Rangers not being allowed to die, etc. However, I DO know what's on David Murray's mind:-

Two things in fact.

1) "Aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening, aw naw this cannae be happening..."

2) That vineyard could do with a state of the art security system being installed for my imminent departure from these shores forever.

oh and you should stick to finances because your diplomatic skills are seriously lacking, i aint 5 yeas old you know!! :mad:

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 01:32
This has been on here before, but you may not have seen it ...



Clubs owned and run by their members are already a European reality

Barcelona, Real Madrid and many German teams show that it is not only the mega rich who can be successful

Phil French(Chief Executive of Supporters Direct)

Tuesday December 20, 2005

The Guardian

As another week...


Says it all. If its good enough for Barcelona and Madrid...?

bluedawg
30-12-2008, 01:40
How do FC Barcelona manage it? Very well, thanks very much. 120,000+ Barcelona members vote for the President every few years - I am not 100% on the finer workings, but FCB is owned by the members and its running by democratically elected professionals.

Surely this is the dream of all large football clubs?

If anyone on here is financially sound, knows some who are, etc, then surely there will never EVER be a better time than now to try to put together a conglomerate, do the due dilligence and try to bid for control of the club.

The dream of all football clubs is success on the field.
The business end of it is a necessary evil.

The RST does not have the financial clout to act alone.
They are the logical choice to spearhead a takeover bid & I would hope have already been recruiting investors.

The due diligence will show SDM has only an aging stadium requiring a sizable maintenance schedule and a number of players under contract as assets.
If anyone can contradict this , please feel free.
As you mentioned, they are overvalued.
Try and sell Chris Burke at 12k a week.
any takers ???

SDM has claimed to have turned down offers before as he wanted Rangers to go to someone with the club's best interest at heart.

The RST would be my choice.

RST member

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 01:43
The stadium is valued on a depreciated replacement cost basis.

The value with this specialist type of property inherently lies with the current user. What is the value of say a secondary comprehensive school? Or a public library? Not many people looking to buy either in their current use but they still have a value based on a DRC basis and count towards local authority assets.

Yeah, and I suppose it has to be that way.

However, when used in the accounts as part of the balance sheet, it is erroneous. The £120m figure shows up as an asset. Its true valuation (i.e. what some other interested party is willing to pay for it) is considerably less.

orange 'n' blue
30-12-2008, 01:48
Apart from the discussions on KDS, MIH is not one of those companies I have heard mentioned as being in dire straits. Unless the OP comes up with some facts that are substantiated then I think we take it with a large pinch of salt. Taking 20&#37; off property values and suggesting this means they are insolvent is utter bollocks. MIH has a number of property investments compared to it's development activities, so has an income stream against which it will have seen interest costs decrease substantially as both base rates and libor have fallen.

Compare this to house builders which have found themselves in the position of having large land banks and very little scope to develop these out during the downturn in the housing market. If the banks were to pull the plug on MIH I suspect it would be after several other big names in the property sector had fallen.

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 01:57
sorry but you are 'getting in my face' to quote you, i am not stupid, i know that the club is poorly run, however the facts that you put forward may be right/may be wrong but as someone else has said, these have been on the Cel*ic boards for months now, and they have predicted financial meltdown, which the club has not seen yet!

so unless you can show us all physical proof that the club, not MIH is going down the swanee river, please stop acting like the school swat who thinks he knows more than everyone else!! this may not be your intention but thats the way you are coming across...

you have a right to your opinion, but please respect the right of others to theres.


oh and you should stick to finances because your diplomatic skills are seriously lacking, i aint 5 yeas old you know!! :mad:


I said I wasn't wanting to get in your face - I'm not so sure why you are reacting in this way. Apologies anyway - no offence intended.

I have posted "physical proof" - I have posted the numbers from MIH's accounts, year ending Jan 31, 2008. The numbers are the proof.

Again, no offence, but I would be far more receptive to a post that offered an alternative view based on the facts - the numbers. Blindly saying that "but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is..." is kind of blind faith, surely?

If I have any real purpose in coming to this website, then more than anything it was to join in a discussion about MIH (and consequently Rangers FC's) finances. I know the dire position they are in - this is what I do. Of the four pages of posts on here, the vast majority are from people who say either "cannae happen" or "tim/journo" (delete as appropriate). I don't care if I dissapear from here forever or I am banned for poor etiquette, whatever - if you take one thing out of this thread, believe me when I say that MIH are in DEEP shit and as a consequence, so are Rangers FC. I further believe (especially after further reading recommended by this thread) that Murray has so many journo's in his hip that you won't read anything about this until someone posts on here that they drove past Ibrox and saw it being boarded up.

David Murray is GBP770m in debt. Seven hundred and seventy million British pounds. And that was before the year of business HELL just suffered.

I thought forums like this would be full of good, positive debate based on fact, not rampant paranoia and lunacy based on life 40 years ago. Institution my arse - once upon a time maybe, aye, but welcome to the new reality. The bottom line is the only line. Life is hard now, get used to it.

inthejuju
30-12-2008, 02:13
Yeah, and I suppose it has to be that way.

However, when used in the accounts as part of the balance sheet, it is erroneous. The £120m figure shows up as an asset. Its true valuation (i.e. what some other interested party is willing to pay for it) is considerably less.

Maybe yes..maybe no. Anyway let's hope it never gets that far.

I do have basic concerns about the current climate (which is perhaps an understatement). Virtually every business I know is finding it tough - cashflow is an issue; credit is tight.

I think the next twelve months will be hugely challenging for all businesses.

How RFC/SDM fares in all of this will remain to be seen.

AppleBear1976
30-12-2008, 02:51
I said I wasn't wanting to get in your face - I'm not so sure why you are reacting in this way. Apologies anyway - no offence intended.

I have posted "physical proof" - I have posted the numbers from MIH's accounts, year ending Jan 31, 2008. The numbers are the proof.

Again, no offence, but I would be far more receptive to a post that offered an alternative view based on the facts - the numbers. Blindly saying that "but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is..." is kind of blind faith, surely?

If I have any real purpose in coming to this website, then more than anything it was to join in a discussion about MIH (and consequently Rangers FC's) finances. I know the dire position they are in - this is what I do. Of the four pages of posts on here, the vast majority are from people who say either "cannae happen" or "tim/journo" (delete as appropriate). I don't care if I dissapear from here forever or I am banned for poor etiquette, whatever - if you take one thing out of this thread, believe me when I say that MIH are in DEEP shit and as a consequence, so are Rangers FC. I further believe (especially after further reading recommended by this thread) that Murray has so many journo's in his hip that you won't read anything about this until someone posts on here that they drove past Ibrox and saw it being boarded up.

David Murray is GBP770m in debt. Seven hundred and seventy million British pounds. And that was before the year of business HELL just suffered.

I thought forums like this would be full of good, positive debate based on fact, not rampant paranoia and lunacy based on life 40 years ago. Institution my arse - once upon a time maybe, aye, but welcome to the new reality. The bottom line is the only line. Life is hard now, get used to it.

tell you what, as you dont frequent this forum to often, go on over the Fhuddleboard, i am sure they will believe everything you have to say and will lap it up, if you dont like it in here...this aint a financial forum, its a Supporters forum, and if your 'Proof' is so solid why have the banks not called in yet????

bored with this now so this will be my last comment on it

bilkobear
30-12-2008, 03:08
I said I wasn't wanting to get in your face - I'm not so sure why you are reacting in this way. Apologies anyway - no offence intended.

I have posted "physical proof" - I have posted the numbers from MIH's accounts, year ending Jan 31, 2008. The numbers are the proof.

Again, no offence, but I would be far more receptive to a post that offered an alternative view based on the facts - the numbers. Blindly saying that "but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is..." is kind of blind faith, surely?

If I have any real purpose in coming to this website, then more than anything it was to join in a discussion about MIH (and consequently Rangers FC's) finances. I know the dire position they are in - this is what I do. Of the four pages of posts on here, the vast majority are from people who say either "cannae happen" or "tim/journo" (delete as appropriate). I don't care if I dissapear from here forever or I am banned for poor etiquette, whatever - if you take one thing out of this thread, believe me when I say that MIH are in DEEP shit and as a consequence, so are Rangers FC. I further believe (especially after further reading recommended by this thread) that Murray has so many journo's in his hip that you won't read anything about this until someone posts on here that they drove past Ibrox and saw it being boarded up.

David Murray is GBP770m in debt. Seven hundred and seventy million British pounds. And that was before the year of business HELL just suffered.

I thought forums like this would be full of good, positive debate based on fact, not rampant paranoia and lunacy based on life 40 years ago. Institution my arse - once upon a time maybe, aye, but welcome to the new reality. The bottom line is the only line. Life is hard now, get used to it.

What has not been debated?
You have said your piece and everyone has taken notice.
What do you expect us to do, rush into the streets with collection tins?

Like many businesses MIH is in deep shit.
It will be a tough ride but like the rest they will have to use all the devices available to them to see them through it.

However one part of the company is a good bet, one part of the company has the most loyal customer base in the country and if the recession continues to squeeze football in the UK who knows this may be our greatest opportunity ever.
But get one thing straight, if Rangers closed down so would the rest of Scottish football, including Scum FC.

It will not happen, but maybe the best thing to evolve from this would be a crisis in English football that could force the hand of Sky into reshaping their product in the UK to include the Old Firm.
Maybe we could help it on its way by all of us binning our Sky Sports subscriptions.

Derek&Clive
30-12-2008, 03:12
What has not been debated?
You have said your piece and everyone has taken notice.
What do you expect us to do, rush into the streets with collection tins?

Like many businesses MIH is in deep shit.
It will be a tough ride but like the rest they will have to use all the devices available to them to see them through it.

However one part of the company is a good bet, one part of the company has the most loyal customer base in the country and if the recession continues to squeeze football in the UK who knows this may be our greatest opportunity ever.
But get one thing straight, if Rangers closed down so would the rest of Scottish football, including Scum FC.

It will not happen, but maybe the best thing to evolve from this would be a crisis in English football that could force the hand of Sky into reshaping their product in the UK to include the Old Firm.
Maybe we could help it on its way by all of us binning our Sky Sports subscriptions.

English football is in crisis - I said as much earlier on in this thread. 8 EPL clubs for sale, strong rumours of Abrhamovic wanting away from Chelsea, etc. This transfer window could be very interesting indeed. I'd expect to see a healthy dose of realism, with loads of players exiting clubs and finding it a lot harder to secure new ones.

big drummer
30-12-2008, 09:03
Yes, let's all just shout "No Surrender" and "WATP" and all our financial worries will simply disappear into the ether.:roll:

I,ll be dead and buried and the club will still be going.The recession will hit hard but it has survived other ones and it will this one.Murray might not be here at the end of it but would that be a bad thing.The club was built by the people for the people and yes We Are The People.No Surrender

blueboy49
30-12-2008, 12:59
Rangers will survive any financial crisis and will always be Scottish footballs biggest club.
That is the way it will be.
Those who dont understand dont matter.

Exiled_Bluenose
30-12-2008, 13:08
If it can happen to banks etc it can happen to us.

Although I think the EPL is in danger of it's bubble bursting soon. And oh how I'll laugh when it comes.

davyloyal
30-12-2008, 13:21
I,ll be dead and buried and the club will still be going.The recession will hit hard but it has survived other ones and it will this one.Murray might not be here at the end of it but would that be a bad thing.The club was built by the people for the people and yes We Are The People.No Surrender

Thank God for that. You've obviously done your research, and have calmed any fears I may have had.

As I say, WATP and No Surrender are the ultimate painkillers, and as long as we keep shouting them, nothing bad can happen to us.:roll:

BarcaGirl1972
30-12-2008, 13:42
I can't believe I just read this whole thread but I did! :wacko:

The question about d+c shouldn't be whether he's a timposter, a fishing journo or even a grumpy bear ... it's whether or not the figures he's quoted are right or not. If there true then we are in deep s**t! :(

I spoke to my dad before posting this and he said that he thinks if the worst happened then the fans would bail out the club as long as sdm went. He was worried though because the last time there was a share issue less than £2million was put in by the fans.

He reckened that if it was to save the club (and get rid of murray) then weed get a lot more.

Without wanting to sound even more gloomy he also said he's worried about the near future whatever happens as c*ltic are going to have a lot more dosh to spend than us for the next few years due to there european money and low debt. Is this likely do you think?

:(

buster
30-12-2008, 13:48
I can't believe I just read this whole thread but I did! :wacko:

The question about d+c shouldn't be whether he's a timposter, a fishing journo or even a grumpy bear ... it's whether or not the figures he's quoted are right or not. If there true then we are in deep s**t! :(

I spoke to my dad before posting this and he said that he thinks if the worst happened then the fans would bail out the club as long as sdm went. He was worried though because the last time there was a share issue less than &#163;2million was put in by the fans.

He reckened that if it was to save the club (and get rid of murray) then weed get a lot more.

Without wanting to sound even more gloomy he also said he's worried about the near future whatever happens as c*ltic are going to have a lot more dosh to spend than us for the next few years due to there european money and low debt. Is this likely do you think?

:(

It&#180;s one thing to ask supporters to save the club in normal times but with a severe depression around the corner I don&#180;t think we&#180;d be able to raise the money needed without several large investors.

Now even the monied are looking after their pennies with a worried expression.

Every day it seems more companies are going to the wall and the cumulative effect of all this will be far reaching.

As I said in October,..a Mad Max style enviroment may be closer than you think.

http://forum.*****************/showthread.php?t=474690

Markpro
30-12-2008, 14:29
We will always be here in some capacity ( just like the Man Utd fans did with their club and start their own, or Wimbledon did).
the difference with us is we would have a club that would wipe the floor with all scotland had to offer ( but i would rather go to england and leave the SPL to rot with what they have thanks very much) :D

big drummer
30-12-2008, 14:32
Thank God for that. You've obviously done your research, and have calmed any fears I may have had.

As I say, WATP and No Surrender are the ultimate painkillers, and as long as we keep shouting them, nothing bad can happen to us.:roll:

They are not the only painkillers,the ones i use are brilliant.I bought shares in my chemist they like Rangers wont go bankrupt.All the scaremongering that is going on is being released by the vatican and other nasty popish establishments

Tam Forsyth 1973
30-12-2008, 14:57
If MIH went bust Rangers would be sold off as a going concern. As a majority on here seem to want Murray out anyway I can't see too many tears being shed...

BarcaGirl1972
30-12-2008, 15:23
If MIH went bust Rangers would be sold off as a going concern. As a majority on here seem to want Murray out anyway I can't see too many tears being shed...

Im no genius but even Ive worked out that were not that good a proposition except to fellow supporters. Any group would need to find the money to buy the club and then handle this possible £30million debt.

After busters comment Im less sure this would happen.

Tam Forsyth 1973
30-12-2008, 15:30
Im no genius but even Ive worked out that were not that good a proposition except to fellow supporters. Any group would need to find the money to buy the club and then handle this possible &#163;30million debt.

After busters comment Im less sure this would happen.

Even without CL football our turnover is around &#163;45m so debt of &#163;30m is not a problem even in current climate. Buyers would come forward as the price in the event of MIH going bust would be a lot less than Murray is asking.

lothiantrueblue
30-12-2008, 15:36
Any further updates from Colin&Justin, no sorry my mistake Derek&Clive?

:confused:

buster
30-12-2008, 15:45
Any further updates from Colin&Justin, no sorry my mistake Derek&Clive?

:confused:

Just watch what happens, or rather what doesn´t happen in the transfer window in football generally, I think this will tell a story.

sodjerblue
30-12-2008, 15:49
I don't think Rangers FC will ever completely die, don't misunderstand me here. I do think that there will be a lot of pain to come before the club are re-born under a new regime. It might be similar to an Airdrie United type of situation.

That is the clincher. Jeebus Taigyboy, you were coming across badly but that last post makes you a worse actor than Ronald Villiers! Go plant some tatties the famines over!

BarcaGirl1972
30-12-2008, 16:01
Even without CL football our turnover is around £45m so debt of £30m is not a problem even in current climate. Buyers would come forward as the price in the event of MIH going bust would be a lot less than Murray is asking.

Turnover is one thing profit is another so whats our profit. How long would/will it take us to pay of our debt and would we still have enough left to buy players while doing it.

sodjerblue
30-12-2008, 16:18
How do FC Barcelona manage it? Very well, thanks very much. 120,000+ Barcelona members vote for the President every few years - I am not 100% on the finer workings, but FCB is owned by the members and its running by democratically elected professionals.

Surely this is the dream of all large football clubs?

If anyone on here is financially sound, knows some who are, etc, then surely there will never EVER be a better time than now to try to put together a conglomerate, do the due dilligence and try to bid for control of the club.

See for someone who stated they aren`t really into fitba, you seem to know a hell of a lot more than MIH financial status? Talking of how Barcelona are run, how we sold our star players last year? You are so full of horseshit I can smell you through the keyboard. I mean Derek&Clive FFS?:o

buster
30-12-2008, 16:44
See for someone who stated they aren`t really into fitba, you seem to know a hell of a lot more than MIH financial status? Talking of how Barcelona are run, how we sold our star players last year? You are so full of horseshit I can smell you through the keyboard. I mean Derek&Clive FFS?:o

Why not ignore the debate instead of throwing unsubstantiated abuse around.

If you think everything is rosey in the garden then fair enough, it´s your opinion but the abuse is uncalled for !

kilwinnin ranger
30-12-2008, 17:11
right my tuppence... Hearts are in a huge financial hole, from what i have heard they MUST sell the best players in there squad as soon as possible.. Rangers may owe money, but so does EVERY Scottish club in one way or another, in fact every team in the EPL owe vast sums too, the difference is that they get far more money via BSKYB...

14-15 years ago the Taigs nearly went bust its a fact!, they where saved by that Candian ****wit, i really, truly do not believe that Rangers would go bust, the banks would not allow it, why destroy one of your largest and most influencial customers? can you imagine what would happen to the bank that foreclosed on Rangers??? and anyways i suspect even if the club became the property of the bank, they would sell us on to someone who would care for the club cause if those damned taigs can find someone to bail them out, i am damn sure that Rangers can!!

and for any shit stirring taigs looking in, Rangers will NEVER go bust, your Shit stadium awill fall down upon your ears first before that day, so GET OVER IT!!!

i agree with applebear........rangers will never be allowed to go bust.
no matter what any tim says , there will always be someone wanting to own scotlands greatest club. :scotflag::watp::union:

bob1873
30-12-2008, 17:17
[B]Lets put it this way, not only am I not optimistic for Murray's future, I am also pretty pessemistic about Rangers future.

Pretty much what I have heard in financial circles.

bob1873
30-12-2008, 17:21
I dont think Rangers will ever go bust despite what celtic supporters want to believeHowever i would worry that in the last share issue or whatever it was dressed
up as SDM had to put in >£56 mil and supporters put in <700,000.

SDM want his money back and the team and supporters will have to pay.

I know that but for wee Fergus the scum were bust and it was HBOS who were doing it. Rangers could go bust and if MIM were in real trouble RFC would be the least of SDM's worries.

MG44
30-12-2008, 17:30
I don't think we need to be alarmist just yet but as some one posted earlier let's see what happens in January. I think (as i posted a week or two back) there will be players leave who we will be up in arms about, with little coming in if any. Murray and Smith have said this more than once, this may well be the start of being fiscally cautious or it may have deeper ramifications only time will tell. This coming 2 yr period will see a lot of belt tightening throughout the business world including the football industry.

bluestrat_08
30-12-2008, 17:47
If all the financial gloom is true with Murray then Id still doubt we would go bust but it would stop us being able to compete for Europe because like it or not there are spl clubs who are doing ok financially like St Mirren and Hibs and if Hearts went to the wall which is the more likely to happen then that might strengthen somebody like Hibs even more with there being a one team city,its a sad fact that if we dont watch ourselves with Murray it will give other spl teams an advantage.

tatmans
30-12-2008, 18:34
a lot of interesting points made.looking at all the comments i would suggest that sir david would be very much open to any right price bid.the last thing he needs at the moment is more drain on his millions.the problem being who would buy rangers.if he doesn't find the "right"buyer,will he continue to streamline and downsize and asset strip the club to make sure he doesn't lose.a lot of uncertaintity ahead.

jock
30-12-2008, 21:02
dont expect tom hunter to come charging through the door anytime soon folks, he has already stated that he intends giving his money away to charity and the like

Number_Eight
30-12-2008, 21:04
dont expect tom hunter to come charging through the door anytime soon folks, he has already stated that he intends giving his money away to charity and the like
I think he has his own financial concerns at the minute ...

Lt Frank Drebin
30-12-2008, 21:05
I think he has his own financial concerns at the minute ...
he sure does with usc going to the wall..

Number_Eight
30-12-2008, 21:07
he sure does with usc going to the wall..http://www.theherald.co.uk/

McCoisty
30-12-2008, 21:11
A good article from another gers site.

Written by "Boss" who I'm sure actually posts on here?!?!?

http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/v2/index.php/articles-mainmenu-2/1-club/657-whither-murrays-bankruptcy



"There are Accounts and there are damned Accounts. And then there is Timothy’s interpretation of Accounts.

Sir David Murray’s conglomerate of cards is about to implode in a dramatic, mixed-metaphorical collapse, not seen since Robert Maxwell suggested: “let’s borrow a few quid from the pension fund”.

Or so says CQN, that veritable bastion of decency and purveyor of all things Liewellian. Their sixth (or is it seventh?) annual proclamation on the imminent demise of big Dave has just been released. And we are doomed. No, this year, honestly, we really are doomed.

For the avoidance of doubt, this article is not a defence of SDM, or his failure to stick up for us minions, or to appreciate the little things that matter to us - like reputation. It is nothing more and nothing less that a quick, objective perusal of the recently released Accounts, and a monumental laugh at those plastic doom merchants.

The first thing to note in Murray International Holdings Limited’s Accounts for the year ended 31 January 2008 is that net debt has increased. By &#163;81m to &#163;759m. The second thing to note is that the bank lent that money; indeed gave a total of &#163;157m in new lending during the year! So someone, somewhere, in HBOS thought SDM was still a good risk. Or rather, the decision to lend this new money was taken at UK lending committee level. The highest of the high, high heid yins. They might, just might, have a greater appreciation of the lending risks than the drama queans (sic) on the sellickhuddlemindedboardkerrynewsquickdale conclaves.

Furthermore, these dolts would have you believe that Murray has borrowed “mullions an’ mullions more an’ put it intae property, the fud”. The reality is less exciting. Half the increase in net debt is accounted for by the increase in (non-property) stock and trade debtors in respect of the various trading businesses that were purchased during the year.

Indeed, to the extent that properties were acquired, these were principally of a development, rather than investment, nature. SDM identified in the 2007 report that the investment end of the market had reached the floor in terms of competitiveness and returns. Better money was to be made in accumulating a landbank with high-end, added-value development potential, develop and sell those on which significant gains could be achieved in early course, and retain an extensive landbank (more than 1m sq ft) for the period ahead, perhaps a few years ahead, when the economy improves. And many of those developments are pre-let or forward-sold before completion. Take the Glasgow development that has been mentioned elsewhere – half has already been pre-let despite not being due to be finished until Spring 2009.

It should also be noted that the valuations of the development properties were sufficiently robust to take a &#163;9m capitalisation of interest. Agreed to by Mr Grant and Mr Thornton. Hardly a sign of properties drastically overvalued.

After profitable disposals in previous years, MIH grasped the mettle to again become major players in the continuing consolidation of the metals market. Their expansion has come in areas of high expertise and in developing new markets and territories. Did you know that 67&#37; of MIH’s turnover comes from metals, and a mere 14% from property? Strategic acquisitions and profitable disposals that enhance group cashflow, that’s the way Davie boy.

As I have advised many businesses recently, in the current market you can either feel sorry for yourself, or you can capitalise on the opportunities that arise, and position yourself strategically to exploit the undoubted bargains of the future.

But back to the Accounts. My abacus tells me that the MIH profit before tax was &#163;20m. After tax and minority interests (don’t ask, that concept even bores the nerdiest of geeky accounting dorks) the profit was &#163;5m. "Ha, see, that’s rubbish and he is nearly bust", they say! But no, says I, remember that is after a &#163;34m charge in respect of writing down the value of the investment in the greatest football club the world has ever known. (Never let it be said that the &#163;50m share issue didn’t cost the man!) Profit excluding this write down was &#163;39m. Not too shabby at all, I could live on that.

Incidentally, I have long suspected that one reason for SDM not yet selling Rangers was that the price a sale could achieve would leave too big a hole in the MIH Accounts. Each year, as the impairment of the investment is recognised, the lower the carrying value, and the more inclined SDM might be to accept the &#163;1 to &#163;15m range that is rumoured to be the maximum he could currently hope for. Indeed, after the January 2009 Accounts pass, in my opinion he might even sell for relative peanuts.

In February this year, MIH effectively bought back for &#163;15m the 5.5% of their own shares owned by Noble Grossart. Pro rated, this values MIH at &#163;270m, with no allowance for that being a minority holding. A case could be made for valuing the entire group at half a billions pounds at that time. Undoubtedly the value has fallen, just as values have fallen for me, Sir Tom, and William Henry Gates III. But MIH is still valued at figures that I could only dream of owning, even if Tommy and Billy would be less in awe.

The CQN article had all the mucky handprints of a financial analyst. Or a stockbroker. Wearing green, Bunnet-like spectacles. And seasoned readers who remember my jousts in another place with Broken Stocker will know what I think of them! Suffice to say, they can calculate ratios. Well done to all financial analysts and stockbrokers the world over. But actually understanding the meaning, the reality, behind those ratios takes more than ‘O’ grade maths (or credit at standard grade in new money). It takes boringness, beancounterability, and many decades; some of us qualify on all counts.

The timidiocy (it should be, shouldn’t it?) of the article needs to be smelled to be believed. Aye, so the new boys at Lloyds are going to pull the plug and be left with humungous losses on their fire-sale of properties. Okay, Paul. Better luck in year seven (or will it be eight?).

So you have a choice, people; you can believe HBOS, Grant Thornton, and one of the most successful businessmen of our generation. (Okay, so some of us might have a tendency not to believe too much of what is said by at least one of those!) Or you can believe a green and grey lickspittle, hiding behind his Mac, regurgitating for the masses (sic, iterum) the contents of Liewell’s bowels. Tough one.

Sir David only managed to take a dividend last year of &#163;5m. And did I mention the &#163;4.5m increase in directors’ emoluments on top of that?

Life’s such a bitch. When you’re doomed."

B :)ss

kyivgers
30-12-2008, 21:52
Where is the gain in a journo doing that? My job is altogether a lot more boring than that, mate. Murray's counsel with the media is widely known, it is no surprise to me that it isn't widely reported. The numbers are available (by law they have to be), so read them and come up with a valid argument against what I've said.

The MIH story is all in the cash flow statement. You can play tunes with the Income Statement (Profit and Loss) and the Balance Sheet... but you cannot hide the cash flow. MIH has survived for the last 2-3 years by borrowing money- yet it has reported making profits. You can only legally do this for so long before the numbers must reverse themselves.


The other issue with his inventory is that almost all of it- steel and UK property were purchased at costs which are far higher than the current market price of these assets. To sell their inventory now (to raise cash) will mean having to recongnize the losses which were being hidden by the build up in inventory ("stocks") in recent years. To report a loss would remove the last tissue that spares the banks' embarrassment on MIH.

The inventory is also part of the fiction that is MIH's balance sheet. In addition to Ibrox's valuation and intangible assets which may not have any commercial value, that the inventory is worth so much less than is reported on the books.

Are you arguing against the numbers? Or are you in the "how can this be happening" school of thought? There have been hundreds of cases throughout history of businessmen who have lead everyone on a merry dance only for the smelly stuff to hit the fan before the truth is known. It happens at domestic level too - one of your friends who is driving a Porsche, living in a luxury house, wearing the best threads... and then you discover that the whole thing has been paid for with credit card debt. You end up feeling sorry for him and having to buy him his beers on Friday.

If you are arguing with the numbers, then please do so.




The RBS thing was just an example of what can happen to seemingly untouchable large institutions. Lets put it this way though - MIH owe roughly the same amount of money as RBS will have to repay the Govt. this year. A not insignifcant amount.

The chances of Rangers going bust are next to nil. Our last set of results showed a profit of &#163;7m. Although we are unlikely to post this again this year.

Our net debts are &#163;21m.

With assets of &#163;71m (even allowing for a mark down) its unikely that if MIH went into administration, the administrator would be unable to find a buyer.

Normally when a group goes into administration they normally break up the assets and sell them off. RFC would be one of those assets, and I would suggest easily sell-able.

I am afraid your post is pretty much nonsense .....

gogo25
30-12-2008, 22:04
Dilatation and curettage (D&C) - Overview - IntroductionDilatation and curettage (D&C) is a minor surgical procedure where the lining of your womb (uterus), the endometrium, is scraped away. ...

inthejuju
30-12-2008, 23:01
I said I wasn't wanting to get in your face - I'm not so sure why you are reacting in this way. Apologies anyway - no offence intended.

I have posted "physical proof" - I have posted the numbers from MIH's accounts, year ending Jan 31, 2008. The numbers are the proof.

Again, no offence, but I would be far more receptive to a post that offered an alternative view based on the facts - the numbers. Blindly saying that "but NOBODY really knows whats in SDM's mind, and what the future of Rangers is..." is kind of blind faith, surely?

If I have any real purpose in coming to this website, then more than anything it was to join in a discussion about MIH (and consequently Rangers FC's) finances. I know the dire position they are in - this is what I do. Of the four pages of posts on here, the vast majority are from people who say either "cannae happen" or "tim/journo" (delete as appropriate). I don't care if I dissapear from here forever or I am banned for poor etiquette, whatever - if you take one thing out of this thread, believe me when I say that MIH are in DEEP shit and as a consequence, so are Rangers FC. I further believe (especially after further reading recommended by this thread) that Murray has so many journo's in his hip that you won't read anything about this until someone posts on here that they drove past Ibrox and saw it being boarded up.

David Murray is GBP770m in debt. Seven hundred and seventy million British pounds. And that was before the year of business HELL just suffered.

I thought forums like this would be full of good, positive debate based on fact, not rampant paranoia and lunacy based on life 40 years ago. Institution my arse - once upon a time maybe, aye, but welcome to the new reality. The bottom line is the only line. Life is hard now, get used to it.


Reference to the excellent Boss article got me looking a bit further - more particulary to his reference to Celtic Quick News.

And I found the following on an article about MIH on 1 December -


"By James Forrest on December 1, 2008 5:21 PM
If my arithmetic is right (haha) it means MIH is sitting right on the edge of the cliff-face.

Total net worth (debts vs liabilities) is right on the raggedy edge. If Murray has over-valued even ONE of his companies, and I think we all know there's a good chance of that what with his Ibrox valuation of some years ago, then the response of Lloyds when they take over the running of the account will be ...... interesting to say the least.

Could they be ....... and I whisper the word ....... INSOLVENT ?

Ha! Perhaps not that ....... but if we win four-in-a-row, they are certainly in a deep dark hole from which they may struggle ever to emerge. What IS the Plan B should we triumph and he is forced to choose someone OTHER than McCoist to carry on 20 Years of Unsurpassed Mismanagement?

And how will the new coach be funded? With frequent flyer coupons or the sale of the stadium? And if something like that DOES occur, what is left to sell in the inevitable scenario they end up right back here in two, three or four years time?

Seriously ...... we could be over the hills and far away very, very soon."


It seems that Derek&Clive and Mr Forrest not only seem to hold very similar views particulary re. the Ibrox valuation but also share an unusual writing style of capitalising the occasional word.

Pure coincidence I'm sure.

AppleBear1976
31-12-2008, 01:10
anyone know what the financial situation over at the hell hole is?

blueboy49
31-12-2008, 01:46
Reference to the excellent Boss article got me looking a bit further - more particulary to his reference to Celtic Quick News.

And I found the following on an article about MIH on 1 December -


"By James Forrest on December 1, 2008 5:21 PM
If my arithmetic is right (haha) it means MIH is sitting right on the edge of the cliff-face.

Total net worth (debts vs liabilities) is right on the raggedy edge. If Murray has over-valued even ONE of his companies, and I think we all know there's a good chance of that what with his Ibrox valuation of some years ago, then the response of Lloyds when they take over the running of the account will be ...... interesting to say the least.

Could they be ....... and I whisper the word ....... INSOLVENT ?

Ha! Perhaps not that ....... but if we win four-in-a-row, they are certainly in a deep dark hole from which they may struggle ever to emerge. What IS the Plan B should we triumph and he is forced to choose someone OTHER than McCoist to carry on 20 Years of Unsurpassed Mismanagement?

And how will the new coach be funded? With frequent flyer coupons or the sale of the stadium? And if something like that DOES occur, what is left to sell in the inevitable scenario they end up right back here in two, three or four years time?

Seriously ...... we could be over the hills and far away very, very soon."


It seems that Derek&Clive and Mr Forrest not only seem to hold very similar views particulary re. the Ibrox valuation but also share an unusual writing style of capitalising the occasional word.

Pure coincidence I'm sure.

great work inthejuju:)the bells were certainly ringing with d and c for sure.

laudrup71
31-12-2008, 02:46
It seems that Derek&Clive and Mr Forrest not only seem to hold very similar views particulary re. the Ibrox valuation but also share an unusual writing style of capitalising the occasional word.

Pure coincidence I'm sure.

To be fair, there are a few people who have worries regarding our clubs finances. I don't doubt that Rangers won't go bust, but there is NOTHING protecting us from Chairman Murray's companies falling victim to financial problems.

There is also no doubt that there is a ping pong campaign predicting the others imminent demise but the current situation is somewhat different.

The timing of the loans to MIH pre-dates the credit crunch, the terms of the loans could be a cause for concern - for example, Abramovitch's loans to Chelsea are repayable at 18 months notice (and that was changed from "on demand"). There are any number of variables that could easily see us in trouble.

If a number of Banks can experience catastrophic financial problems in an incredibly short time frame, why not David Murray? We've seen his largesse cause us, Rangers, any number of problems - why should we assume that his main companies would be run in a less reckless, longer term manner?

I'm in no way professing to have any sort of expertise, but I do know that the prospect, or even suggestion that Rangers might have problems in this manner frightens me. It causes me concern.

On that basis, I'm happy for posters to actually stimulate debate. Moreover "the Boss"'s assertion that everything is OK because HBOS looked over it doesn't fill me with confidence when you look at their stewardship of their own company. That's not to say he's wrong, but I'd like a proper in depth analysis. Derek&Clive offers one side, the Boss the other. That's the start of a healthy debate.

My issue is that there are a number of people, who at least appear to be bears, worried. Who express concern or at least curiosity in regard to the viability of Murray's companies.

I don't read Celtc fan sites. I don't read them because invariably they annoy me. Where fact is absent, the void will be filled with fantasy and vitriol in equal measure. I don't doubt the demise of Rangers has been discussed many many time and predicted often.

However, we are in precarious times. Larger institutions than MIH have fallen. And to have administrators called in doesn't mean loans will be worth nothing. It'll simply mean that the bank decides that's the easiest and quickest manner of getting back the maximum amount they can from what the perceive to be a company at risk. If the risk exceeds what they are wiling to be exposed to, then there will be trouble.

Will this happen? I don't know. But stifling debate with cod sentence analysis and accusations will do nothing to further our understanding. Not that our understanding would change much, but it might help mobilise those people who might be in a position to help. It might help encourage people to, for example, join the RST. To turn up the heat on Murray, to pre-empt his demise.

I don't know anymore. My head is spinning. :(

laudrup71
31-12-2008, 02:58
You can believe HBOS - the bank who has failed so spectacularly with utterly stupid, short sited horseshit judgements that they are about to be swallowed by one of their rivals.

I thought the rampant paranoia was a Celtic thing?

I will later post a rebuttal of "The Boss" and his lengthy statement, should I still have the "priviledge" of being a member here...

Mate, the top sentence has echoed my own post.

Secondly, there are a few of us here who are interested in what you have to say. I for one would like you to keep posting. I might end up not agreeing on the conclusions you reach, but at least I'd like to consider them.

Low post counts always are under suspicion. Sometimes with good reason, other times simply because a contentious view is held. Weather the storm though.

inthejuju
31-12-2008, 03:04
I agree 100%

Let's have an open, healthy and honest debate. I've already expressed my concerns on this thread regarding the state of businesses in general.

There is no reason to believe that RFC/SDM will be isolated from these extraordinary times.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 03:07
Mate, the top sentence has echoed my own post.

Secondly, there are a few of us here who are interested in what you have to say. I for one would like you to keep posting. I might end up not agreeing on the conclusions you reach, but at least I'd like to consider them.

Low post counts always are under suspicion. Sometimes with good reason, other times simply because a contentious view is held. Weather the storm though.

I appreciate that one can be under suspicion, after all, the internet is basically anonymous.

However, I am home in Scotland for the duration of the Christmas holidays and this, which was supposed to be an enjoyable distraction, is becoming pretty boring pretty quickly.

I have now done the best I can to prove my credentials without handing out my phone number - there is some risk involved in this for me, you know?

I am more than happy to debate with reasonable people who will argue their point based on FACTS. The MIH numbers are pretty much public domain, people should read them, analyse them and absorb them and respond with reasonable, courteous discussion, not irrelevant twaddle, innuendo and accusation of other interests.

laudrup71
31-12-2008, 03:39
I appreciate that one can be under suspicion, after all, the internet is basically anonymous.

However, I am home in Scotland for the duration of the Christmas holidays and this, which was supposed to be an enjoyable distraction, is becoming pretty boring pretty quickly.

I have now done the best I can to prove my credentials without handing out my phone number - there is some risk involved in this for me, you know?

I am more than happy to debate with reasonable people who will argue their point based on FACTS. The MIH numbers are pretty much public domain, people should read them, analyse them and absorb them and respond with reasonable, courteous discussion, not irrelevant twaddle, innuendo and accusation of other interests.

To be honest, I was taken aback that you'd feel compelled to post that picture. More power to you for that.

I'm very interested to read your more in-depth rebuttal of The Boss's defence. I can guess some of the points, but you've so far offered a lot of facts and figures. And ones that other Bears on the forum, TheEA included (a poster with a very high post count and, for me, above suspicion in the timposter stakes) have heard. Which seems to lend credence to what you are saying.

Murray's insolvency might however land us an advantage?

For example, it's almost inconceivable that Rangers wouldn't be sold as a "going concern" or possibly be bought back under a "pre pack" arrangement to allow business as usual? Especially given the fact that under the right circumstances Rangers could generate quite a lot of profit?

My reason for surmising this is that the very stick that the very stick used to hit us - ie the over valuation of Rangers land assets, may assist us if it came to a choice of "breaking up" the club or it being sold as a living working entity. For example, Rangers being able to make &#163;10m per year profit and rising may be far more saleable than a packet of land in Ibrox with a stadium sitting on it and a bundle of players including Chris Burke et al?

The amount of money it would cost to purchase Rangers might become very very attractive? If for example the purchaser was able to take over and refinance the Rangers debt then the club might be sold for a penny, making the prospect of purchase an attractive one rather than a dreadful one? I'm guessing that the administrators would want to make cash, but getting a debt liability off the books might be enough in of its self, no?

Finally, without getting ahead of ourselves here - is't it possible that Murray could repackage and renegotiate the loans that MIH have? Won't it also depend on the types of loan? If most debt is in the form of long term borrowing/mortgages then as long as the interest is paid, won't the bank be happy to be patient and to wait for the recovery of the economy and rise of the sector again?

Again, I'm interested to hear your opinions.

number7
31-12-2008, 03:47
D & C lost me, having just read this thread, when he claims to know nothing about football, but knows the implications of Cl qualification for the taigs this year.
he contradicts himself rather a lot

Financial expert he may be, Rangers at his heart? I don't think so

I am not calling him a taig or journo as I have no evidence. But he is not being completely truthful with us. Of that I am certain.

Gazman_Airdrie
31-12-2008, 03:59
D & C lost me, having just read this thread, when he claims to know nothing about football, but knows the implications of Cl qualification for the taigs this year.
he contradicts himself rather a lot

Financial expert he may be, Rangers at his heart? I don't think so

I am not calling him a taig or journo as I have no evidence. But he is not being completely truthful with us. Of that I am certain.

Each to their own, he's not done anything to suggest to me he is not being truthful. I'm quite looking forward to see what he has to say about the boss's article.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 03:59
To be honest, I was taken aback that you'd feel compelled to post that picture. More power to you for that.

I'm very interested to read your more in-depth rebuttal of The Boss's defence. I can guess some of the points, but you've so far offered a lot of facts and figures. And ones that other Bears on the forum, TheEA included (a poster with a very high post count and, for me, above suspicion in the timposter stakes) have heard. Which seems to lend credence to what you are saying.

Murray's insolvency might however land us an advantage?

For example, it's almost inconceivable that Rangers wouldn't be sold as a "going concern" or possibly be bought back under a "pre pack" arrangement to allow business as usual? Especially given the fact that under the right circumstances Rangers could generate quite a lot of profit?

My reason for surmising this is that the very stick that the very stick used to hit us - ie the over valuation of Rangers land assets, may assist us if it came to a choice of "breaking up" the club or it being sold as a living working entity. For example, Rangers being able to make £10m per year profit and rising may be far more saleable than a packet of land in Ibrox with a stadium sitting on it and a bundle of players including Chris Burke et al?

The amount of money it would cost to purchase Rangers might become very very attractive? If for example the purchaser was able to take over and refinance the Rangers debt then the club might be sold for a penny, making the prospect of purchase an attractive one rather than a dreadful one? I'm guessing that the administrators would want to make cash, but getting a debt liability off the books might be enough in of its self, no?

Finally, without getting ahead of ourselves here - is't it possible that Murray could repackage and renegotiate the loans that MIH have? Won't it also depend on the types of loan? If most debt is in the form of long term borrowing/mortgages then as long as the interest is paid, won't the bank be happy to be patient and to wait for the recovery of the economy and rise of the sector again?

Again, I'm interested to hear your opinions.

In all honesty, I'm pretty drunk right now :)

I will give further opinion when my mind is in a better state to deal with it.

Suffice it for the moment to say that there are many options for both MIH and Rangers FC to take. One or both could go under, or survive, or even thrive, it will depend on the decisions taken and the prevailing economic climate. Regardless of all of that, I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that Rangers FC, in some shape, will come out of the other end, either under Murray or A.N. Other. Whether or not this period of change will harm the club or not remains to be seen, but I feel some pain will be felt. In football terms, whether that is an ankle knock or cruciate ligament damage, I have no idea.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 04:01
D & C lost me, having just read this thread, when he claims to know nothing about football, but knows the implications of Cl qualification for the taigs this year.
he contradicts himself rather a lot

Financial expert he may be, Rangers at his heart? I don't think so

I am not calling him a taig or journo as I have no evidence. But he is not being completely truthful with us. Of that I am certain.

Jesus Christ. I never said I know nothing about football, just that I'm far from an expert. I understand the financial implications of CL qualification for a Scottish club though - no doubt about that whatsoever.

bilkobear
31-12-2008, 04:42
Jesus Christ. I never said I know nothing about football, just that I'm far from an expert. I understand the financial implications of CL qualification for a Scottish club though - no doubt about that whatsoever.

Keep posting.
Those with suspicion regarding your motives can't help themselves, Rangers have many enemies who hate the Club irregardless of football rivalry, but solely because it is a Protestant and Unionist Flagship.
There are dark forces at work in Scotland and many hands that guide our enemies live outside of football.
Accept that some will doubt your motives it comes with the territory.

However remember that when you are appraising Rangers through the eyes of a Beancounter it is well to consider that banks and retailers, manufacturers and restaurants, builders and all manner of service providers, can all go bust and are quickly replaced by their once customers and often soon forgotten.
But Rangers Football Club wraps our children in clothing, is worn when we go to bed at night, adorns our workplace, bedroom and car, and absorbs our waking moments in hope, conversation and friendship.
It is no ordinary company and can never ever be replaced.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 04:57
...But Rangers Football Club wraps our children in clothing, is worn when we go to bed at night, adorns our workplace, bedroom and car, and absorbs our waking moments in hope, conversation and friendship.
It is no ordinary company and can never ever be replaced.

Thanks.

It is precisely because I know how much it means to people, people who include generations of my family and friends, that I am here to post on the subject. I care because I think that pain may be imminent and I don't want to see people get hurt.

The Rangers support surely carries a bit of weight and has the ability to organise itself to help bring about change? I am not saying that people should organise burning torch protests on the word of some unknown dude on an internet forum. I am simply trying to promote debate on a topic that I understand and all Rangers fans should at least try to understand. The figures are pretty much public domain as i understand it. Sound economic thinking is less so, but still, not rocket science. Do some homework, read the figures, make up your own minds. But whatever it is you do, FFS don't do nothing.

Tam Forsyth 1973
31-12-2008, 09:33
I'll make a post on this at a later stage when I have a better opportunity to absorb the contents. Suffice to say at this stage, I disagree with a great deal of it.

You can believe HBOS - the bank who has failed so spectacularly with utterly stupid, short sited horseshit judgements that they are about to be swallowed by one of their rivals.

Or Grant Thornton, none of whose clients have ever ever gone bust. No, they all lived happily ever after in la-la-land, thanks to Thornton's expensive advice.

Or you can believe me, a Director Of the Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation, who anonymously has taken his time to register with this forum and, unrestricted by professional confidentiality or conflict of interest, give you some facts and open debate on the issue of MIH's impending insolvency.

The choice is yours. Frankly, I don't give a good shit either way. Sticks and stones, etc...

I thought the rampant paranoia was a Celtic thing?

I will later post a rebuttal of "The Boss" and his lengthy statement, should I still have the "privilege" of being a member here...

As many people want Murray out why should we care if MIH goes bust? They will then sell Rangers to the highest bidder and someone will pick us up at a bargain price.

deedle
31-12-2008, 09:49
I don't want to sound overly cynical but why would a high level banker waste his time posting on a football messageboard in the middle of the night?


I don't think Rangers FC is in any particular danger. The wage bill is a reasonable fraction of overall turnover, although a ridiculous amount of money was paid out in bonuses last year. (For me, this is a major issue, although it doesn't seem to have attracted much interest here.)

Overall debt has increased, but nothing like the extent of many other clubs throughout Britain.

Should the Murray empire collapse, then Rangers FC would be sold off just like other parts. Arguably the greatest concern would be the fate of Auchenhowie. Land developers would love to purchase this separately from the rest of the club.

chilledbear
31-12-2008, 09:58
I hope all the contributers keep this thread going, we are in dangerous times, there can be no doubt about that. Also even if Rangers were to be sold as a seperate entity, it's in the lap of the Gods who the buyer would be.

'Someone who has Rangers best interests at heart', might just be a thing of the past.

bluedawg
31-12-2008, 11:06
Should the Murray empire collapse, then Rangers FC would be sold off just like other parts. Arguably the greatest concern would be the fate of Auchenhowie. Land developers would love to purchase this separately from the rest of the club.

And was the youth acadamy not set up as a separate entity ???
The acadamy was to turn a profit selling players to Rangers and & other clubs.
Murray Park would not be a part of a Rangers FC sale as I understand it.

Bluedell
31-12-2008, 11:29
You can believe HBOS - the bank who has failed so spectacularly with utterly stupid, short sited horseshit judgements that they are about to be swallowed by one of their rivals.

Or Grant Thornton, none of whose clients have ever ever gone bust. No, they all lived happily ever after in la-la-land, thanks to Thornton's expensive advice.

Or you can believe me, a Director Of the Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation, who anonymously has taken his time to register with this forum and, unrestricted by professional confidentiality or conflict of interest, give you some facts and open debate on the issue of MIH's impending insolvency.

The choice is yours. Frankly, I don't give a good shit either way. Sticks and stones, etc...

I've got plenty of banker's business cards I can hold up in front of a computer screen and score out all the details. Not sure what that proves.

So because HBOS ran into financial trouble, that means everything they do or say is wrong? Are you saying that every employee of HBOS or Grant Thornton cannot make correct business decisions? that strikes of extreme arrogance and I doubt that someone in the position that you claim to be in would come out with that sort of stuff.

Bluedell
31-12-2008, 11:46
I don't post on here, but I do like to read the views. This is one subject where I think I can add something, so I will break my silence.

It is my opinion that Rangers are in real trouble with finance. Or more correctly, David Murray and MIH is.

I've seen MIH Accounts to 31 Jan 2008 and what follows is a brief summary of them. (The date is important when one considers the financial meltdown that 2008 has shown us).

1. The Group had net assets of £158m. This is an important figure in that it tells you what you own less what you owe. It represents what would be left over if all the companies liabilities were paid in the morning. While £158m seems healthy read on.

2. £800m of the companies assets include properties, rangers and land being developed (£250m). The accounts continuously state that the valuations are based on the directors estimates etc. How much has property dropped in the UK in the last 12 months? Being even more percise - how much has commercial property fallen by? If (say) its 20% then in reality (assuming all those estimates were bang on the money - the value of the assets are now £160m less. If this is the case then the net assets are now no longer +£158m but -£2m and the company is technically insolvent

3. You will note that Ibrox is included in the accounts at a valuation provided by a firm of Chartered Surveyors in Glasgow. From memory this valuation was £120m. While I am no expert in property prices in the Strathclyde region this (even at the height of the market) seems ambitious (read for ambitious, ludicrous).

4. Given that metal prices have collapsed in 2008 then the I have no doubt that the accounts at January 2009 would worry even the most bullish banker.

2009 will be a very interesting year to be a Rangers fan I think.


2. Excluding Rangers' assets, I believe that there is not a huge difference between historical cost and the amount shown in the accounts. Has the type of property that MIH invested in dropped by 20%? I'm no property expert either.

3. Murray park is included in the valuation of £120m and therefore shoould have an impact on your assessment, although I would agree that the stadium is overvalued, but perhaps not to the extent that you are suggesting.

laudrup71
31-12-2008, 12:42
I've got plenty of banker's business cards I can hold up in front of a computer screen and score out all the details. Not sure what that proves.

So because HBOS ran into financial trouble, that means everything they do or say is wrong? Are you saying that every employee of HBOS or Grant Thornton cannot make correct business decisions? that strikes of extreme arrogance and I doubt that someone in the position that you claim to be in would come out with that sort of stuff.

Equally, if it IS a ruse, it's a reasonably elaborate one. And more "proof" than most of us have posted.

I think the second point is pretty disingenuous. That's not remotely what has been said, but HBOS's actions would certainly call into question a lot of its major strategic decisions. It's not a case of the odd bad call, but of a consistent and prolonged recklessness with other people money and a disregard for the due diligence that should have been carried out when assessing risk. The point the poster is making, and has repeatedly made is that we should look at the figures and take cognisance of the meaning.

I don't know D&C, and I can't vouch for him/her in any way - but I would like the discussion to be had. If we chase posters away simply because they hold a contentious view it's the end of FF as anything other than a clique. Real discussion will end and we might as well read Chairman Murray's PR releases.

There are enough knowlegable people on FF to discuss the facts and figures without having to resort to continued "you might be tim" accusations. He might be a tim, he might be a bear. We've heard the accusations. There is nothing new in accusing someone of being a tim. It's an accusation that's been leveled plenty of times on this thread. We all know he might be tim, it doesn't need repeated 1000 times. Let's move on with the discussion.

What I do know is that there are a number of people on this board who are unquestionably bears who harbour worries and who are taking what has been said seriously.

laudrup71
31-12-2008, 12:46
And was the youth acadamy not set up as a separate entity ???
The acadamy was to turn a profit selling players to Rangers and & other clubs.
Murray Park would not be a part of a Rangers FC sale as I understand it.

The youth academy thing is something I've wondered about on several occasions. I've never been able to get to the bottom of what is going on.

Does the company that was set up own Auchenhowie and the academy or simply run the academy on Rangers ground?

Which also begs the question that if it's the former, do we, Rangers have to pay a fee to train and use the facilities there? I know we have to pay a "fee" if youth players transition to the first team, but I'm not sure beyond that.

The other thing is, surely this setup deincentivises the promotion of youth to the first team? Just what we need. :eek:

carino
31-12-2008, 12:55
The youth academy thing is something I've wondered about on several occasions. I've never been able to get to the bottom of what is going on.

Does the company that was set up own Auchenhowie and the academy or simply run the academy on Rangers ground?

Which also begs the question that if it's the former, do we, Rangers have to pay a fee to train and use the facilities there? I know we have to pay a "fee" if youth players transition to the first team, but I'm not sure beyond that.

The other thing is, surely this setup deincentivises the promotion of youth to the first team? Just what we need. :eek:
Murray Park is owned by rangers FC.

Rangers Youth Development Ltd. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rangers FC.

Other wholly owned subsidiaries are Rangers Media Investments and Rangers.co.uk Ltd.

Rangers Financial Services and The Rangers Shop are also wholly owned but are currently dormant.

dereksmallsloyal
31-12-2008, 13:04
As the accounts are based on fair valuations and the cash flow is heading one way, I see no reason to rubbish D&C's comments. MIH would be alone if it weren't experiencing financial difficulties. If they have been speculating into property, this would be even more the case.

I see every need to be concerned. I also agree that without us the whole of Scottish football would fold.

Bluedell
31-12-2008, 13:08
Equally, if it IS a ruse, it's a reasonably elaborate one. And more "proof" than most of us have posted.

I think the second point is pretty disingenuous. That's not remotely what has been said, but HBOS's actions would certainly call into question a lot of its major strategic decisions. It's not a case of the odd bad call, but of a consistent and prolonged recklessness with other people money and a disregard for the due diligence that should have been carried out when assessing risk. The point the poster is making, and has repeatedly made is that we should look at the figures and take cognisance of the meaning.

I don't know D&C, and I can't vouch for him/her in any way - but I would like the discussion to be had. If we chase posters away simply because they hold a contentious view it's the end of FF as anything other than a clique. Real discussion will end and we might as well read Chairman Murray's PR releases.

There are enough knowlegable people on FF to discuss the facts and figures without having to resort to continued "you might be tim" accusations. He might be a tim, he might be a bear. We've heard the accusations. There is nothing new in accusing someone of being a tim. It's an accusation that's been leveled plenty of times on this thread. We all know he might be tim, it doesn't need repeated 1000 times. Let's move on with the discussion.

What I do know is that there are a number of people on this board who are unquestionably bears who harbour worries and who are taking what has been said seriously.

I never claimed that he was a tim, and am certainly not trying to "chase" him away, so please don't try and infer that I did. However plenty of people have made financial arguments on this board before without having to pull out their business cards to try and back up what they are saying is correct.

What proof do you have for your claim that HBOS have a "consistent and prolonged recklessness with other people money and a disregard for the due diligence that should have been carried out when assessing risk" in respect of commercial lending of the sort given to MIH?

Bluedell
31-12-2008, 13:11
The youth academy thing is something I've wondered about on several occasions. I've never been able to get to the bottom of what is going on.

Does the company that was set up own Auchenhowie and the academy or simply run the academy on Rangers ground?

Which also begs the question that if it's the former, do we, Rangers have to pay a fee to train and use the facilities there? I know we have to pay a "fee" if youth players transition to the first team, but I'm not sure beyond that.

The other thing is, surely this setup deincentivises the promotion of youth to the first team? Just what we need. :eek:

Rangers own Auchenhowie. As Carino has already pointed out RYD is wholly owned by Rangers and is funded by Rangers and therefore it doesn't matter what fees are charged by it.

carino
31-12-2008, 13:39
I never claimed that he was a tim, and am certainly not trying to "chase" him away, so please don't try and infer that I did. However plenty of people have made financial arguments on this board before without having to pull out their business cards to try and back up what they are saying is correct.

What proof do you have for your claim that HBOS have a "consistent and prolonged recklessness with other people money and a disregard for the due diligence that should have been carried out when assessing risk" in respect of commercial lending of the sort given to MIH?Quite,

MIH is highly geared but as of January 2008 was not breaching its banking covenants.

Problems facing HBOS and others embroiled in the current financial crisis stem in the main from their exposure to toxic and unquantified elements in complex structured investment vehicles ( SIVs ) to which they are exposed.

HSBC for example have a &#163;22 billion problem with its two SIVs ( Cullinan and Asscher ) which requires action to prevent them breaching SIV covenants.

MIH may not be an ideal business model in the current climate but its financial situation and commercial borrowing differ greatly from the troubles which many face in what is generically being referred to as the 'credit crunch'.

Neither does it suffer from the rapidly mounting pressures ( finding the next quarter's rent for example ) with which Sir Tom Hunter, often mooted as a Rangers saviour, is currently battling. :(

Dede' Arneaux
31-12-2008, 13:45
with the ever increasing costs the club have in the current climate,and the real possibility of no champions league money for a few seasons given the way the playing side is going,is it conceivable that rangers fc could be no more.is the chairman waiting on a dubai consortium making him an offer he can't refuse that's not going to happen.my question is are we in danger here.we are constantly downsizing and weakening the playing staff to manage the debt,yet the manager is being allowed to spunk money on mediocre players.sir david has already had to be bailed out due to his financial mismanagement.is he taking the club down a road here that we might not recover from.i would be very interested in responses from anyone with some financial accumen here and anyone who can see where we will be long term.thoughts please

We are selling our best players to avoid a slide in to further debt and bankruptcy.
Its akin to Tom Hunter flogging the best stock in USC to other clothing shops and buying in cheaper stuff to allow the shops to keep trading. In this example it means they will be selling cheap sh1te and the shop becomes far removed from its original 'quality' outlook - sound familiar?

MG44
31-12-2008, 14:56
We are selling our best players to avoid a slide in to further debt and bankruptcy.
Its akin to Tom Hunter flogging the best stock in USC to other clothing shops and buying in cheaper stuff to allow the shops to keep trading. In this example it means they will be selling cheap sh1te and the shop becomes far removed from its original 'quality' outlook - sound familiar?

This was my point earlier mate and we just don't know how good or bad things are until the end of the month. We need people like D&C and others here who are more established posters with a financial background who can flesh out the bones of what us laymen understand.
Is it any wonder why people lurk rather than post when just because of a low post count they are called into question when they approach such a sensitive subject in an informative way and one or two who disagree rather than debate the issues, resort to the timmy jibes. Cmon guys if he's a timmy the mask will slip, but up to now he's made good, erudite and informative points.

bob1873
31-12-2008, 18:47
I've got plenty of banker's business cards I can hold up in front of a computer screen and score out all the details. Not sure what that proves.

So because HBOS ran into financial trouble, that means everything they do or say is wrong? Are you saying that every employee of HBOS or Grant Thornton cannot make correct business decisions? that strikes of extreme arrogance and I doubt that someone in the position that you claim to be in would come out with that sort of stuff.

I work for a bank not HBOS and not HSBC - a Scottish one that is in deep doo doo! I too have no personal knowledge of SDM or MIM and I have not seen the 2008 accounts. There have been rumours about MIM and HBOS would not want to 'bust' MIM now they have enough bad debt.

There is definately some truth in 'D&C's post but how likely it is that we face what the scum faced in the 90's I do not know - who does? But if you'd said RBS/HBOS/Barclays would be almost burst and that their shares would be worth 'pence' a year ago you would have been laughed at. Right now all bets are off!

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 18:48
I don't want to sound overly cynical but why would a high level banker waste his time posting on a football messageboard in the middle of the night?


I don't think Rangers FC is in any particular danger. The wage bill is a reasonable fraction of overall turnover, although a ridiculous amount of money was paid out in bonuses last year. (For me, this is a major issue, although it doesn't seem to have attracted much interest here.)

Overall debt has increased, but nothing like the extent of many other clubs throughout Britain.

Should the Murray empire collapse, then Rangers FC would be sold off just like other parts. Arguably the greatest concern would be the fate of Auchenhowie. Land developers would love to purchase this separately from the rest of the club.


I'm on here in the middle of the night because I am on holiday at the moment. I normally work 16hrs a day then sleep for 8. I'm bored and not working means I'm not tired.

Rangers ARE spilling red ink. The 2007 numbers released showed a small profit because of getting to a UEFA final and through player sales. Operating income was not good. Without the CL this year- losses are guaranteed. Losses within a loss making bigger company… we are just piling on top of a large pile of misery. And if we do not qualify for the CL next season? I shudder to think.




A good article from another gers site.

Written by "Boss" who I'm sure actually posts on here?!?!?

http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/v2/index.php/articles-mainmenu-2/1-club/657-whither-murrays-bankruptcy



"There are Accounts and there are damned Accounts. And then there is Timothy’s interpretation of Accounts.

Sir David Murray’s conglomerate of cards is about to implode in a dramatic, mixed-metaphorical collapse, not seen since Robert Maxwell suggested: “let’s borrow a few quid from the pension fund”.

Or so says CQN, that veritable bastion of decency and purveyor of all things Liewellian. Their sixth (or is it seventh?) annual proclamation on the imminent demise of big Dave has just been released. And we are doomed. No, this year, honestly, we really are doomed.

For the avoidance of doubt, this article is not a defence of SDM, or his failure to stick up for us minions, or to appreciate the little things that matter to us - like reputation. It is nothing more and nothing less that a quick, objective perusal of the recently released Accounts, and a monumental laugh at those plastic doom merchants.

The first thing to note in Murray International Holdings Limited’s Accounts for the year ended 31 January 2008 is that net debt has increased. By £81m to £759m. The second thing to note is that the bank lent that money; indeed gave a total of £157m in new lending during the year! So someone, somewhere, in HBOS thought SDM was still a good risk. Or rather, the decision to lend this new money was taken at UK lending committee level. The highest of the high, high heid yins. They might, just might, have a greater appreciation of the lending risks than the drama queans (sic) on the sellickhuddlemindedboardkerrynewsquickdale conclaves.

Furthermore, these dolts would have you believe that Murray has borrowed “mullions an’ mullions more an’ put it intae property, the fud”. The reality is less exciting. Half the increase in net debt is accounted for by the increase in (non-property) stock and trade debtors in respect of the various trading businesses that were purchased during the year.

Indeed, to the extent that properties were acquired, these were principally of a development, rather than investment, nature. SDM identified in the 2007 report that the investment end of the market had reached the floor in terms of competitiveness and returns. Better money was to be made in accumulating a landbank with high-end, added-value development potential, develop and sell those on which significant gains could be achieved in early course, and retain an extensive landbank (more than 1m sq ft) for the period ahead, perhaps a few years ahead, when the economy improves. And many of those developments are pre-let or forward-sold before completion. Take the Glasgow development that has been mentioned elsewhere – half has already been pre-let despite not being due to be finished until Spring 2009.

It should also be noted that the valuations of the development properties were sufficiently robust to take a £9m capitalisation of interest. Agreed to by Mr Grant and Mr Thornton. Hardly a sign of properties drastically overvalued.

After profitable disposals in previous years, MIH grasped the mettle to again become major players in the continuing consolidation of the metals market. Their expansion has come in areas of high expertise and in developing new markets and territories. Did you know that 67% of MIH’s turnover comes from metals, and a mere 14% from property? Strategic acquisitions and profitable disposals that enhance group cashflow, that’s the way Davie boy.

As I have advised many businesses recently, in the current market you can either feel sorry for yourself, or you can capitalise on the opportunities that arise, and position yourself strategically to exploit the undoubted bargains of the future.

But back to the Accounts. My abacus tells me that the MIH profit before tax was £20m. After tax and minority interests (don’t ask, that concept even bores the nerdiest of geeky accounting dorks) the profit was £5m. "Ha, see, that’s rubbish and he is nearly bust", they say! But no, says I, remember that is after a £34m charge in respect of writing down the value of the investment in the greatest football club the world has ever known. (Never let it be said that the £50m share issue didn’t cost the man!) Profit excluding this write down was £39m. Not too shabby at all, I could live on that.

Incidentally, I have long suspected that one reason for SDM not yet selling Rangers was that the price a sale could achieve would leave too big a hole in the MIH Accounts. Each year, as the impairment of the investment is recognised, the lower the carrying value, and the more inclined SDM might be to accept the £1 to £15m range that is rumoured to be the maximum he could currently hope for. Indeed, after the January 2009 Accounts pass, in my opinion he might even sell for relative peanuts.

In February this year, MIH effectively bought back for £15m the 5.5% of their own shares owned by Noble Grossart. Pro rated, this values MIH at £270m, with no allowance for that being a minority holding. A case could be made for valuing the entire group at half a billions pounds at that time. Undoubtedly the value has fallen, just as values have fallen for me, Sir Tom, and William Henry Gates III. But MIH is still valued at figures that I could only dream of owning, even if Tommy and Billy would be less in awe.

The CQN article had all the mucky handprints of a financial analyst. Or a stockbroker. Wearing green, Bunnet-like spectacles. And seasoned readers who remember my jousts in another place with Broken Stocker will know what I think of them! Suffice to say, they can calculate ratios. Well done to all financial analysts and stockbrokers the world over. But actually understanding the meaning, the reality, behind those ratios takes more than ‘O’ grade maths (or credit at standard grade in new money). It takes boringness, beancounterability, and many decades; some of us qualify on all counts.

The timidiocy (it should be, shouldn’t it?) of the article needs to be smelled to be believed. Aye, so the new boys at Lloyds are going to pull the plug and be left with humungous losses on their fire-sale of properties. Okay, Paul. Better luck in year seven (or will it be eight?).

So you have a choice, people; you can believe HBOS, Grant Thornton, and one of the most successful businessmen of our generation. (Okay, so some of us might have a tendency not to believe too much of what is said by at least one of those!) Or you can believe a green and grey lickspittle, hiding behind his Mac, regurgitating for the masses (sic, iterum) the contents of Liewell’s bowels. Tough one.

Sir David only managed to take a dividend last year of £5m. And did I mention the £4.5m increase in directors’ emoluments on top of that?

Life’s such a bitch. When you’re doomed."

B :)ss


The Boss’ article is laughable - and symptomatic of one of the main problems regards PR/Media/Truth: Tims are saying we are in trouble, therefore we cannot be in trouble. The media doesn't say we are in trouble, therefore we cannot be in trouble.


My rebuttal:

The Boss: "That the banks have continued to lend - therefore MIH must be fine."

MIH’s accounts do not disclose the terms under which the bank can withdraw the credit lines. We do not know whether it is binding credit facility (i.e. cannot be withdrawn without a breach of some undisclosed terms) or whether HBOS are just trying to avoid recognizing the bad debt in their own books. It is getting off on a tangent, but I believe that the UK economy is screwed for the next 5-10 years. The next wave of bad news is the amount of commercial bad debt on the banks books. (That is why we are not lending despite government cash infusions). MIH is one of literally thousands of commercial loans which look very sickly. My guess is that HBOS is keeping MIH (and many other large borrowers) afloat in the hope that the recession will end quickly- and everyone will get paid. In a liquidation, HBOS stands to lose about GBP300-400m of the GBP770 they have extended to MIH.

The Boss’ article correctly points out that MIH is not just a property company. In the last accounts, it took about 70% of its revenue from the steel industry.

Have a look at this link… tell me what you think about the steel industry: http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6625650.html?industryid=48389

MIH makes very little steel of its own. It is essentially a stockist that does a little preparation work i.e. cut plates to size etc.

Inventory added in the first half of 2008 will most likely still be there- and will be used as the cost base for any sales now (LIFO accounting). This means that MIH will be selling steel at a loss at the moment.

The Boss might want to examine the inventory numbers for MIH over the last 3 years. Inventory - steel and UK property has grown dramatically. These assets are booked at historical cost, but cannot be sold at a profit at this time. MIH should have taken a charge on their P&L to recognize this, but didn’t. (To be fair - it is not illegal). MIH has used its inventory growth to stick overhead costs on to the balance sheet as an asset rather than as an expense which would reduce profits. In fact, I believe that MIH would have lost money in all of the last 3 years if there had been no growth in inventory. Look at the free cash flow numbers… the story is there. Massively negative FCF - only covered by increases in bank debt.

Just to recap my argument here:

Rangers short-term fortunes are tied to those of MIH.

MIH is in big trouble.

If MIH goes down, the banks will look for a buyer to take Rangers as a going concern.

With a disastrous financial record over the last 10-15 years - and in the SPL, Rangers are not going to attract any financial investors. Any buyer will be a rich fan looking to become a little poorer.

The names that have been touted have their own problems. Unless fan organizations like the RST prepare now, there may not be sufficient time to organize and do it later.

There is a mortal threat to the existence of Rangers FC. Unless those with the capacity to do something start acting now…

inthejuju
31-12-2008, 19:39
Interesting post.

You describe the article from the Boss as laughable but seem to agree on a central point - that HBOS/Lloyds are unlikely to call in loans as the potential losses would be enormous.

With your HSBC hat on, would you put MIH in jeopardy if you were exposed to the same level?

hillheadbear
31-12-2008, 19:49
I work for a bank not HBOS and not HSBC - a Scottish one that is in deep doo doo! I too have no personal knowledge of SDM or MIM and I have not seen the 2008 accounts. There have been rumours about MIM and HBOS would not want to 'bust' MIM now they have enough bad debt.


The problem here is that the last set of MIH accounts are almost a year old and 2008 has been a verrrrrry long year. I had a quick glance at those accounts and it seemed to me that MIH was carrying a lot of debt and that much of its asset value was tied up in property. So the chances are that the accounts are going to carry quite a lot of red ink given the decline in property values. Whether this triggers action by the banks remains to be seen.

I agree with D&C on one thing. There should be some contingency planning in the event of MIH going belly-up. If Lehmann and Bears Sterns can fail, why not MIH? Being a private company, none of us really know what is going on in there. Indeed, it could be the opportunity that those of us, who have long dreamed of the support owning the club, have waited for.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 19:49
Interesting post.

You describe the article from the Boss as laughable but seem to agree on a central point - that HBOS/Lloyds are unlikely to call in loans as the potential losses would be enormous.

With your HSBC hat on, would you put MIH in jeopardy if you were exposed to the same level?

Well, I don't make these kind of decisions in my professional life, so my answer may well be even more irrelevant than it already would have been, but...

I'd pull the plug yesterday if this was my call. As far as I am concerned, continuing to loan MIH money is like shovelling banknotes onto a fire. Bad news can't get much worse for banks at this time, so...

hillheadbear
31-12-2008, 19:52
Interesting post.

You describe the article from the Boss as laughable but seem to agree on a central point - that HBOS/Lloyds are unlikely to call in loans as the potential losses would be enormous.

With your HSBC hat on, would you put MIH in jeopardy if you were exposed to the same level?

In the big scheme of things, they are not that enormous. Around half a billion but secured on propert which could be sold (okay they wouldn't get all the money back). Cushioned by taxpayers dosh, the banks might be tempted to take the medicine and clean up their loan portfolio.

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 19:54
In the big scheme of things, they are not that enormous. Around half a billion but secured on propert which could be sold (okay they wouldn't get all the money back). Cushioned by taxpayers dosh, the banks might be tempted to take the medicine and clean up their loan portfolio.


HBOS could expect to lose circa GBP400m if they pull the plug on MIH.

I suppose the golden question for the bank is do they continue to throw cash in the hope of recovery, or admit their mistakes and get out now.

hillheadbear
31-12-2008, 19:58
HBOS could expect to lose circa GBP400m if they pull the plug on MIH.

I suppose the golden question for the bank is do they continue to throw cash in the hope of recovery, or admit their mistakes and get out now.

It really depends whether MIH can continue to service its debt out of rents (SDM argued to the RST that his risk was mitigated by having high quality tenants) and other income.

There is a business problem and there is an accounting problem. The business problem is the ability to generate sufficient income to cover costs during a recession. The accounting problem is having to write down the value of assets which could push MIH into technical insolvency.

Jamesy
31-12-2008, 20:09
D&C has made very valid and lucid points. In a liquidation, Rangers could not be sold to recover the 'asset' valuation. i.e. Ibrox is never worth a fraction of what is listed. It may be worth that to a football club, but a liquidated asset is not worth anything like that.

Reality is, if MIH is forced to sell to pay debts, any 'reasonable' offer for Rangers would put them under pressure from the banks to sell. A business with &#163;30m debt and an average loss of &#163;10m per annum is better off the books.

D&C makes good points that the RST needs to seek advice now.... or face a doom'n'gloom situation with no time to think - and as some posters have said elsewhere, we do not want the first buyer with &#163;30m in assets to come in and but us.. could be another Hearts!

Derek&Clive
31-12-2008, 20:16
It really depends whether MIH can continue to service its debt out of rents (SDM argued to the RST that his risk was mitigated by having high quality tenants) and other income.

There is a business problem and there is an accounting problem. The business problem is the ability to generate sufficient income to cover costs during a recession. The accounting problem is having to write down the value of assets which could push MIH into technical insolvency.

In particular, this statement baffles me:


It really depends whether MIH can continue to service its debt out of rents

MIH increased borrowing by GBP136m in the year ending Jan 31, 2008.

The paid GBP37.5m in interest in the same period. They started the year with GBP2 million in cash.

Their Free Cash Flow (Cash generated from Operations - Cash Invested in Operations) was -GBP75m. I repeat, MIH needed to borrow at least GBP73.5 million to avoid bankruptcy last year.

Of that GBP73.5m, GBP37.5m was interest on bank debt. Murray was borrowing the money to pay the interest!!!

I'm sorry, but anyone who cant see the humungous disaster area that this is, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

inthejuju
31-12-2008, 20:21
It really depends whether MIH can continue to service its debt out of rents (SDM argued to the RST that his risk was mitigated by having high quality tenants) and other income.

There is a business problem and there is an accounting problem. The business problem is the ability to generate sufficient income to cover costs during a recession. The accounting problem is having to write down the value of assets which could push MIH into technical insolvency.

UK commercial rents are forecast to decline over the next two years meaning that the existing portfolio may see little or no uplift at a rent review (although unlikely to go down because of lease clauses).