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View Full Version : Is it a case of Pena or Niko every game?



Coza
23-07-2017, 20:50
I haven't saw much of Pena but given we forked out big money for him it would suggest he is going to play most weeks when fit. From the write ups on here and the reviews pre signing it would seem in our diamond 4 both he and Niko will fill the same role (high point of a diamond). Both players also are a luxury of sorts in that neither will not look to work back but rather stay forward. So is it inevitable that we will not see both on the pitch at the same time ? Especially in the larger games where you can't carry two luxury players ? We might get away with it versus dross at home I guess.

I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing if we had a situation where Krankjar only played the last 25-30 minutes of every game when teams open up a bit we can rely on his creativity on the ball. Not sure he has the legs to be a mainstay in the team all season.

MearnsUnionist
23-07-2017, 21:00
Probably too early to tell, but what we do know now after yesterday is that we have genuine quality in midfield with competition for places.

Certainly didn't have that last season.

cav
23-07-2017, 21:09
Very early doors but at the moment it seems neither are likely to last at full steam for ninety minutes,but given Pedro seems able to change formations hopefully both will get up to full fitness and give us fantastic options.

gregoryisaacs
23-07-2017, 21:09
I haven't saw much of Pena but given we forked out big money for him it would suggest he is going to play most weeks when fit. From the write ups on here and the reviews pre signing it would seem in our diamond 4 both he and Niko will fill the same role (high point of a diamond). Both players also are a luxury of sorts in that neither will not look to work back but rather stay forward. So is it inevitable that we will not see both on the pitch at the same time ? Especially in the larger games where you can't carry two luxury players ? We might get away with it versus dross at home I guess.

I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing if we had a situation where Krankjar only played the last 25-30 minutes of every game when teams open up a bit we can rely on his creativity on the ball. Not sure he has the legs to be a mainstay in the team all season.

Kranjcar won't play most weeks - if everyone is fit.

He looked every bit as good yesterday as he did this time last season.

I think we'll see him start more at home and come on for the last 30 mins in other matches.

Growler
23-07-2017, 21:20
Niko played left midfield yesterday in a much flatter 442 (until the changes were made anyway), not sure Pena can play out left?

Think Pena is more of a late arriver with lots of energy, where as Niko, well he isn't that energetic ha.

Laurie1872
23-07-2017, 21:22
Pena is a box to box player so he will work back quite a bit as well as forward.

purdy1985
23-07-2017, 21:23
Far too early to tell IMO

gerz1873
23-07-2017, 21:25
There was an article on here from a Mexican based journalist that said Pena is more of a box to box midfielder , which would suggest he would be better deployed in a 442 or in the middle of a diamond than in the number 10 role. Box to box obviously needs optimum fitness levels hence Pena not featuring much so far imo

albertz84
23-07-2017, 21:25
i dont know but Pedro can hardly ask the board for 3 million for a guy to be a bit part player. You would imagine he would be thinking he will be one of the main players.

Spart7
23-07-2017, 21:25
Pena is a dynamic box to box (Pedro's own words) midfielder who can score goals and Niko is essentially a number 10, Pedro's creative 'quarterback' who plays the likes of Pena in. They will be playing in the same team at some point as, imo, niko and dorrans will eventually compete for the cam role once Pena is up to speed. Pena's competition for the box to box role is currently Holt, only one winner there, and why McLean's name keeps cropping up I'm guessing. Dorrans started in midfield sat as Pena isn't yet game ready imo. Once he is then Pedro will have a choice to make unless he goes for a diamond, whereby all three can play. Just my opinion.

albertz84
23-07-2017, 21:26
Pena is a dynamic box to box (Pedro's own words) midfielder who can score goals and Niko is essentially a number 10, Pedro's creative 'quarterback' who plays the likes of Pena in. They will be playing in the same team at some point as, imo, niko and dorrans will eventually compete for the cam role once Pena is up to speed. Pena's competition for the box to box role is currently Holt, only one winner there, and why McLean's name keeps cropping up I'm guessing. Dorrans started in midfield sat as Pena isn't yet game ready imo. Once he is then Pedro will have a choice to make unless he goes for a diamond, whereby all three can play. Just my opinion.

I agree with this

Spliffster
23-07-2017, 21:26
Niko is a playmaker and Pena is box-to-box, so I don't think it'll be either/or. Both should be able to play in the same team without problem.

texas ranger
23-07-2017, 21:30
Pena is a box to box player so he will work back quite a bit as well as forward.
Pena is the big gamble transfer for us. I don't think Pedro has signed him for what he has done recently but for what he was doing 3-4 years ago when he was one of the best players in Mexico and when Pedro was coaching there. So he got him cheap ( compared to what he would have been then) and I'm sure sold Pena on restarting his career in Scotland with an eye to a move to the EPL , La Liga, etc in 3 years time. Help Rangers short term, get back to what he is capable of and then move on in a big money transfer.

As you posted, he is definitely capable of box to box , will do more work than Niko when fully fit I would think.

thebluesea
23-07-2017, 21:34
As it stands just now I think the left mid spot will be filled with either Niko or Windass. Both can't be trusted to play centrally for different reasons. Ones no legs and the other doesn't have the football intelligence.

Hopefully that left hand side will change though with arrivals.

Laurie1872
23-07-2017, 21:38
Pena is the big gamble transfer for us. I don't think Pedro has signed him for what he has done recently but for what he was doing 3-4 years ago when he was one of the best players in Mexico and when Pedro was coaching there. So he got him cheap ( compared to what he would have been then) and I'm sure sold Pena on restarting his career in Scotland with an eye to a move to the EPL , La Liga, etc in 3 years time. Help Rangers short term, get back to what he is capable of and then move on in a big money transfer.

As you posted, he is definitely capable of box to box , will do more work than Niko when fully fit I would think.

You're right he is a gamble considering he's not been up to much in the past few years, i hope he can reproduce form of old, if that's the case then what a player we will have on our hands.

napierbear
23-07-2017, 21:46
I imagine both will play in a 4-2-3-1 formation.

MearnsUnionist
23-07-2017, 21:50
I imagine both will play in a 4-2-3-1 formation.



I think everyone, including Pedro was encouraged by a 2 up front partnership yesterday.

No goals I know, but certainly stretched a top drawer defence at times.

albertz84
23-07-2017, 21:55
As it stands just now I think the left mid spot will be filled with either Niko or Windass. Both can't be trusted to play centrally for different reasons. Ones no legs and the other doesn't have the football intelligence.

Hopefully that left hand side will change though with arrivals.

if walker and naismith sign Windass wont even make the bench, he is not good enough.

GimmeShelter
23-07-2017, 22:06
I see the 4-4-2 Diamond as being (assuming Walker signs)

Walker

Dorrans Pena

Jack

With the full backs getting forward to provide crosses.

And if a 4-2-3-1

Walker Dorrans Candeias

Jack Pena

With crosses coming from both wingers and fullbacks.

I think both Niko and Kenny will start from the bench this season.

High Society
23-07-2017, 22:18
God save us from complicated systems and players out of position.

4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers is our best option. if we play Niko left mid he'll get torn apart. Left mid players should be left footed and all wider players need pace.

As a few have said, Niko coming on with 30 mins to go sounds sensible.


Not sure how many left sided players we have, but it's not many

DylanGer
23-07-2017, 22:20
We don't know.

Pedro has suggested he will use different systems in different games.

I don't think yesterday was a total 4-4-2 as Miller was a bit withdrawn and as much as most people are saying Herrera is ideal for a partner I'm not sure Pedro fancies 2 upfront-old style.

I still don't quite get how the system is supposed to work as at times we just don't get the bodies forward and at other times we have the bodies forward but the ball is behind them and it looks like we are trying to pick a killer pass out. It's quite odd. Obviously under Warburton when it was working we passed and moved and got bodies forward in numbers-this is a different thing.

Pena by all accounts is box to box which I think considering the brick walls we face is a tough gig.

Still any system can work if the players are good enough-a sole striker with good hold up and ability to turn defences can work but again it is also a tough gig.

Historically Pedro has had a style but he is now at clubs with totally different demands. As long as he hasn't too many signings that don't hack it then the overall quality surely must mean something a fair bit better than last season. I think it's fair to say though as of yet we don't know what is for example his main system for home ties and what games he considers he needs to change it for.

DylanGer
23-07-2017, 22:25
God save us from complicated systems and players out of position.

4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers is our best option. if we play Niko left mid he'll get torn apart. Left mid players should be left footed and all wider players need pace.

As a few have said, Niko coming on with 30 mins to go sounds sensible.


Not sure how many left sided players we have, but it's not many

I really tend to agree with this.

For all the debate previously on players failing to fallow instructions and the like and indeed the different systems Pedro uses-I do wonder if the whole thing is being overcooked.

In the main we face a pretty tough challenge in Scotland but the hurdles are obvious-lack of space, lack of time on the ball, a degree of physicality and teams who would die for a point-so much so even if you score the 1st goal they'll hardly change what they are doing to later on as they will still think they can sneak a goal.

We require to overcome these things-win the battle in midfield and score goals.

Standards1972
23-07-2017, 22:28
We don't know.

Pedro has suggested he will use different systems in different games.

I don't think yesterday was a total 4-4-2 as Miller was a bit withdrawn and as much as most people are saying Herrera is ideal for a partner I'm not sure Pedro fancies 2 upfront-old style.

I still don't quite get how the system is supposed to work as at times we just don't get the bodies forward and at other times we have the bodies forward but the ball is behind them and it looks like we are trying to pick a killer pass out. It's quite odd. Obviously under Warburton when it was working we passed and moved and got bodies forward in numbers-this is a different thing.

Pena by all accounts is box to box which I think considering the brick walls we face is a tough gig.

Still any system can work if the players are good enough-a sole striker with good hold up and ability to turn defences can work but again it is also a tough gig.

Historically Pedro has had a style but he is now at clubs with totally different demands. As long as he hasn't too many signings that don't hack it then the overall quality surely must mean something a fair bit better than last season. I think it's fair to say though as of yet we don't know what is for example his main system for home ties and what games he considers he needs to change it for.

For all the anticipation of Walker and Naismith arriving, and I welcome that as well because they're good players, an obvious formation is not staring me in the face.

I suppose it's great to have options but he could have problems keeping them all happy.

strider
23-07-2017, 22:30
God save us from complicated systems and players out of position.

4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers is our best option. if we play Niko left mid he'll get torn apart. Left mid players should be left footed and all wider players need pace.

As a few have said, Niko coming on with 30 mins to go sounds sensible.


Not sure how many left sided players we have, but it's not many

If Kranjcar plays there, it's with a similar role to Zidane whilst at Madrid in mind.

He played on the left as such, but was pretty much given a free role, and it allowed the full back (usually Roberto Carlos) to get forward easier.

There's almost always more space to be found when wide rather than central. Niko with space equals sexual passes.

Fwiw, I think we'll see 3 main systems this season. The last 2 games have shown all 3.

The diamond 4-4-2, the flatter 4-4-2, and a 4-2-3-1. There will be a number of games where Peņa and Kranjcar play together.

DylanGer
23-07-2017, 22:51
If Kranjcar plays there, it's with a similar role to Zidane whilst at Madrid in mind.

He played on the left as such, but was pretty much given a free role, and it allowed the full back (usually Roberto Carlos) to get forward easier.

There's almost always more space to be found when wide rather than central. Niko with space equals sexual passes.

Fwiw, I think we'll see 3 main systems this season. The last 2 games have shown all 3.

The diamond 4-4-2, the flatter 4-4-2, and a 4-2-3-1. There will be a number of games where Peņa and Kranjcar play together.

Krancjar's sexual passes can be a bit whore like at times-he gives the ball away too much. I don't think it matters where you play him if he is in the team week in week out we will be in trouble.

I also don't know why we would need 3 systems either-Pedro does actually seem to mix up how we play in quite odd terms-it's as if he has told the team to alternate how we attack during a game. I get tactical changes as a game unfolds but these seem set.

Time will tell but I think we all know he needs solid performances and results and overall during his tenure we've lacked the ability to control games even against lesser opposition and are still quite clearly working on middle to front.

It's his neck on the line but I wouldn't be overcomplicating things.

The Predator
23-07-2017, 23:04
The good thing is we now have proper midfield options. Players who can play various formations. We didnt have that last season. We also have a potentially solid spine in development.

strider
23-07-2017, 23:13
Krancjar's sexual passes can be a bit whore like at times-he gives the ball away too much. I don't think it matters where you play him if he is in the team week in week out we will be in trouble.

I also don't know why we would need 3 systems either-Pedro does actually seem to mix up how we play in quite odd terms-it's as if he has told the team to alternate how we attack during a game. I get tactical changes as a game unfolds but these seem set.

Time will tell but I think we all know he needs solid performances and results and overall during his tenure we've lacked the ability to control games even against lesser opposition and are still quite clearly working on middle to front.

It's his neck on the line but I wouldn't be overcomplicating things.

We face a few different challenges in my eyes.

Firstly, the teams packed in looking to keep it tight and not allow space. For those games, I think we'll see the diamond 4-4-2, a system designed to allow runners from midfield.

Some believe you need width in those games, but one look at the stats behind goals from crosses will show that it's rarely very effective.

Secondly, the games where teams come out at us. Celtic, the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, probably more so at their ground. What we saw on Saturday will be preferred. It offers good balance between attacking options and defensive shape.

Lastly, the moments in games where we're up by a goal but the other team are finishing strongly. The 4-2-3-1 will give us cracking counter attacking options.

When we discussed the Progres games, my point was that it wasn't the tactics those days, but poor performances from the players. A few options tactically won't be complicated, it's just a way to give the players the best chance of finding the required answers.

PMB1872
23-07-2017, 23:21
I see the 4-4-2 Diamond as being (assuming Walker signs)

Walker

Dorrans Pena

Jack

With the full backs getting forward to provide crosses.

And if a 4-2-3-1

Walker Dorrans Candeias

Jack Pena

With crosses coming from both wingers and fullbacks.

I think both Niko and Kenny will start from the bench this season.

I certainly hope you're wrong with that 4231...far too much reliance on getting goals from midfield. There is no chance a single striker is going to score enough to minimise that risk.

kennyger
23-07-2017, 23:24
When Pena came on we changed to a 433

DylanGer
23-07-2017, 23:31
We face a few different challenges in my eyes.

Firstly, the teams packed in looking to keep it tight and not allow space. For those games, I think we'll see the diamond 4-4-2, a system designed to allow runners from midfield.

Some believe you need width in those games, but one look at the stats behind goals from crosses will show that it's rarely very effective.

Secondly, the games where teams come out at us. Celtic, the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, probably more so at their ground. What we saw on Saturday will be preferred. It offers good balance between attacking options and defensive shape.

Lastly, the moments in games where we're up by a goal but the other team are finishing strongly. The 4-2-3-1 will give us cracking counter attacking options.

When we discussed the Progres games, my point was that it wasn't the tactics those days, but poor performances from the players. A few options tactically won't be complicated, it's just a way to give the players the best chance of finding the required answers.

Celtic games are a different animal we'd agree on that.

I'd agree to some extent the top tier teams might attack more but I think a lot recently of that is the fact we looked weak and vulnerable last season. It was noticeable for example the difference at Pittodrie in the 2 games-the first one they really sat in-the 2nd one they attacked more.

So our form will dictate some aspect of it but I do think since we've clearly strengthened middle to back even in Edinburgh and Aberdeen-they'll sit in with a view to counter attacking us-yes it might be a tad more expansive than at Ibrox but not by much.
Caution first with all of these teams in my book unless we flop and if we do tactical discussions will be temporary and due for replacement anyway.

As for penetrating teams yes I'd agree it doesn't need to be always out wide but we need to both stretch teams and create space-that comes from quality passing and the ability to beat a man and of course support if you do that.

At this stage again I think we would agree it's up in the air because it's new players and a new season but in the main we either need to as you suggest perform to allow the system to work or play to our strengths. For me so far we don't have a system that suggests to me that we will be attacking enough. That's so far I get Pedro knows he needs to win games and he needs to start the season pretty quickly too. I think a blind man can see he plays a reasonably defensive way....so far.