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archimedes
28-03-2016, 12:16
Rather than a defensive midfielder?

The stats may prove me wrong, but it seems to me we hardly ever catch opposition strikers offside...if this is the case, why not employ someone in a sweeper role who can clean up behind the 2 centre halfs rather than a defensive midfielder, who if beaten still leaves the back 2 exposed.

Would also provide cover for the full backs going forward.

Wilton_Bear
28-03-2016, 12:18
We would be overrun in midfield.

Dunantblue
28-03-2016, 12:19
Rather than a defensive midfielder?

The stats may prove me wrong, but it seems to me we hardly ever catch opposition strikers offside...if this is the case, why not employ someone in a sweeper role who can clean up behind the 2 centre halfs rather than a defensive midfielder, who if beaten still leaves the back 2 exposed.

Would also provide cover for the full backs going forward.

Not in my opinion. The sweeper is rarely if ever used in the game today for a reason, and it just wouldn't fit with our style.

paul8gascoigne
28-03-2016, 12:21
We would be overrun in midfield.

The depends on the formation. Compared to how we play now, we'd potentially have more men in the midfield playing a sweeper.
But no, I don't think we should play with a sweeper. Wouldn't suit our style.

A1bertz
28-03-2016, 12:22
We have a kind of sweeper....the Goalie!
All we need is a decent defensive set up. No point in putting a band aid on it. They ain't good enough.

Wilton_Bear
28-03-2016, 12:23
Warburton has set his stall out and we'll be playing 4-3-3.

Dunantblue
28-03-2016, 12:24
We have a kind of sweeper....the Goalie!
All we need is a decent defensive set up. No point in putting a band aid on it. They ain't good enough.

I think you are wrong. But that's football and opinions.

hammer17
28-03-2016, 12:33
Two (or three) competent centre halfs is the answer

georgeclooney
28-03-2016, 12:35
Kiernan is playing too deep at the moment this is a problem that needs fixing. We dont need a sweeper as this will give teams more of the park to exploit with runners .

fothyman
28-03-2016, 12:52
Rather than a defensive midfielder?

The stats may prove me wrong, but it seems to me we hardly ever catch opposition strikers offside...if this is the case, why not employ someone in a sweeper role who can clean up behind the 2 centre halfs rather than a defensive midfielder, who if beaten still leaves the back 2 exposed.

Would also provide cover for the full backs going forward.

The 2 central defenders are rarely involved so to have a player further behind them would be crazy as it would make our midfield weaker. The DM is responsible for both helping out the 2 central defenders by breaking up attacks but to also start out attacking play. The 2 further forward midfielders would have be over run.

The defenders (and midfielders) need to concentrate more and develop a better reading of the game. The second and third QOTS goals could have easily been prevented had players been closed down.

williewoodburn
28-03-2016, 12:59
I think a lot of our defensive frailties lie with our obsession with attacking full backs. Far too often Wallace for example cant get back quick enough to cover his defensive position. The second QoS goal a case in point. As the ball reached the scorer Wallace is seeing arriving 10 seconds too late to mark him.

Sure its great to see two attacking wing backs up front at the same time but it leaves us exposed to deep balls played wide.

strider
28-03-2016, 12:59
Can anyone name a team that plays a sweeper now?

Changes to the offside rule and players being better hitting a ball from distance moved that role forward.

We don't get caught out with the ball over the top the way we did earlier in the season very often now.

williewoodburn
28-03-2016, 13:05
I think a lot of our defensive frailties lie with our obsession with attacking full backs. Far too often Wallace for example cant get back quick enough to cover his defensive position. The second QoS goal a case in point. As the ball reached the scorer Wallace is seeing arriving 10 seconds too late to mark him.

Sure its great to see two attacking wing backs up front at the same time but it leaves us exposed to deep balls played wide.

ps just seen the bbc highlights, my memory playing tricks a wee bit, Wallace was there in position but just caught sleeping !

jdilla
28-03-2016, 13:08
The 1950's called. It wants its tactics back

Torque87
28-03-2016, 13:13
I don't think there is a place for an out and out sweeper in modern football, don't think I've seen any team use one these days.

CaptainCourageous
28-03-2016, 13:14
No but I will gladly take a better CB to partner Kiernan and a combative midfielder to shore up the midfield, protect the back four and bring a bit of discipline, positional awareness and bite.

hutch42
28-03-2016, 13:25
Decent holding mid that can play football

salsoul
28-03-2016, 13:25
Not a sweeper but We do need a proper defensive midfield player

playing ball alongside Kiernan rather than Wallace would be an improvement straight away also

There are questions about Tav at right back long term in my view, too many times he's been left wanting defensively

tazzabear
28-03-2016, 13:53
A sweeper, as described, is too easy to beat.
Works okay in a one off but a team with decent width wins this tactical battle .
Tell me though, how many of the goals we've lost could have been avoided had we used a sweeper?

papasmurf
28-03-2016, 14:10
100% not. A ball winning, strong DM who can pass well. Similar to the DM we had at the home game against kilmarnock.

Gersandproud
28-03-2016, 14:30
No but I will gladly take a better CB to partner Kiernan and a combative midfielder to shore up the midfield, protect the back four and bring a bit of discipline, positional awareness and bite.

I'm with you - a 'rock' of a CB - who does the simple things well - clears the lines with a minimum of fuss- is much more effective than a sweeper would be -
A defensive minded midfielder - who could also switch well to attack when called upon - would also help shore us up - trouble is I can't see any obvious candidates in amongst our price range or in our normal shopping locations at the moment -
I hope MW & McP have spotted some potential 'gems' or kids to line up

papasmurf
28-03-2016, 14:53
I'm with you - a 'rock' of a CB - who does the simple things well - clears the lines with a minimum of fuss- is much more effective than a sweeper would be -
A defensive minded midfielder - who could also switch well to attack when called upon - would also help shore us up - trouble is I can't see any obvious candidates in amongst our price range or in our normal shopping locations at the moment -
I hope MW & McP have spotted some potential 'gems' or kids to line up

Matt Crooks?

supergers07
28-03-2016, 14:58
No

Our style of play is basically like ultra attacking mode on a game of FIFA. If the opposition score, we score more.
I have no issue with that tbh if it's good attractive winning football.

We could have The two best cbs in the world playing for us, but due to our attacking style we'd still concede.

purdy1985
28-03-2016, 14:58
The 1950's called. It wants its tactics backNot that I'm in favour of a sweeper but I believe several Italian teams operate that system , Napoli quite successfully

Gersandproud
28-03-2016, 15:22
Matt Crooks?

I don't know why (senility probably) but I'd forgotten about him - I hope he does prove to be the answer

ArkansasGer
28-03-2016, 15:28
I think it would help if our defenders would put their bodies on the line occasionally. The 2nd goal on Sat, Tav twice and Wallace once might have sharpened up, while the 3rd goal was a pathetic attempt by Wilson to block the shot. If one of the kids in a youth team had turned his back like Danny, you would point out their error. Must do better lads.

Skyy Bluenose
28-03-2016, 15:31
We need a defensive midfielder who plays as a defensive midfielder. Ball has done okay at the job, but Halliday is more attack-minded and generally plays all over the place when he's in the role.

I didn't think the central two were directly to blame for any of the goals on Saturday. My first priority would be a defensive midfielder in the summer. I assume since Warburton's last attempt at business in the January window, was trying to sign the big guy from Brentford, he probably thinks the same.

wayoutwest
28-03-2016, 15:45
I'm led to believe Brentford fans regularly debated their defence while MW was in charge, it's has a lot to do with how he wants to play. It seems very important that we defend well from the frontline given our tendency to push up on our opposition, although a strong defensive midfielder would be helpful.

As for our centre halfs, yes they have made costly errors but they are still young and learning and have to be given more time to develop. It's rare for CH's in their mid 20's to be near the finished article, remember Davie Weir (aged 24) was still at Falkirk.

NRC_Queens11
28-03-2016, 15:46
Whilst we shouldn't excuse the defending, all of the goals we have conceded lately have been individual errors due mainly to lapses in concentration. I felt it was pretty evident on Saturday (and Friday previously) that the players have began switching off when we move into a winning position.

The first goal exposed Wallace' main weakness which is covering his man and avoiding the run in behind. Albeit it was Lee losing his footing when trying to get back that made the challenge for the penalty look more a Rugby tackle.

The second goal was down to hesitation between Tavernier and Foderingham. I find that alarming. I think Wes is a good goalkeeper but I'd like to see him command cross balls better than he does - we've lost a few balls to that this season.

boab1688
28-03-2016, 15:48
Seems to me Wilson and Keiran take a lot off flack for the teams gung ho approach - both full backs bomb forward and we don't really have a central def midfield specialist


Walter used to get a lot off credit for signings good centre half and rightly so but lots off times they had 2 natural central defenders at full back for example broadfoot and papac and always a holding mid sometimes 2 in front


I think the stick our central defenders get is a bit over the top considering the style off play our defensive record is excellent


I think a few tweaks to system for next season both be fine

fallintrueblue1873
28-03-2016, 15:54
Only 1 reply so far so I will add it also. Warburton has already many times stated we will be playing a 4-3-3 system. So you won't see any change to it. It's being implemented from the youths through to the seniors.

Earl of Leven
28-03-2016, 15:56
We should try what Barcelona do from time to time, and Dortmund did a few years back...PSG also try it at home.

Basically you play your centre backs vertically rather than horizontally...front player man marks their lone striker, and the partner is deeper to sweep up ball when it breaks. It can work very well against teams with one striker, and sweeper can also start moves.

3 at back wouldn't suit us as well.

cav
28-03-2016, 15:57
We need a better,more experienced CH to play beside one of the two we currently have.Someone who's more positionally aware and knows when to hold the line or drop off.As simple as that sounds good defenders do it very well,I agree with the poster saying CH's tend to get better with age as well.We can't afford to have two young-ish CH's right now when we go up,it's no more difficult than that.

Of course a proper DM will help as well,but we've known that all season.

strider
28-03-2016, 16:01
We should try what Barcelona do from time to time, and Dortmund did a few years back...PSG also try it at home.

Basically you play your centre backs vertically rather than horizontally...front player man marks their lone striker, and the partner is deeper to sweep up ball when it breaks. It can work very well against teams with one striker, and sweeper can also start moves.

3 at back wouldn't suit us as well.

I'd say this is already happening.

At the start of the season, and it may just have been the need for both to develop more of a partnership, Wilson and Kiernan were prone to being square and a ball over the top hurt us a few times. That's not happening as often.

Teams are now setting up the way the likes of Leicester and Watford do in the Premiership - 4-4-2, on the counter, with pace up front rather than a big target man playing a lone role. That makes it more difficult for the side looking to dominate possession as an early, largely aimless, ball into the channel can be turned into something dangerous if you lose possession high up the pitch.

There's been loads of tweaks to deal with the stuff that was hurting us - you don't see both Wallace and Tavernier going as high up the park at the same time as we did earlier in the season, we only leave one up from corners now, stuff like that.

wayoutwest
28-03-2016, 16:14
We need a better,more experienced CH to play beside one of the two we currently have.Someone who's more positionally aware and knows when to hold the line or drop off.As simple as that sounds good defenders do it very well,I agree with the poster saying CH's tend to get better with age as well.We can't afford to have two young-ish CH's right now when we go up,it's no more difficult than that.

Of course a proper DM will help as well,but we've known that all season.

While that would be nice you have to consider the cost. Unless McParland can unearth a gem, a seasoned defender who is comfortable with the ball starts to become expensive in terms of transfer AND wages.

Maybe the management are planning to do just that, but i suspect they intend to stick with Kiernan and Wilson. Develop your own instead of buying the finished product. It is after all, the kind of philosophy many of us wanted.

Ape and Essence
28-03-2016, 16:18
I'm with you - a 'rock' of a CB - who does the simple things well - clears the lines with a minimum of fuss- is much more effective than a sweeper would be - Are you asking Sir Davie to get his boots back on?

Diesel0412
28-03-2016, 16:30
The problem we have is Dom ball playing the holding role,last 2 games he's played there conceded 6 goals,when Halliday played there we only conceded 3 goals in 11 games

strider
28-03-2016, 16:31
The problem we have is Dom ball playing the holding role,last 2 games he's played there conceded 6 goals,when Halliday played there we only conceded 3 goals in 11 games

Are you including the Dundee game and Kilmarnock games in those 11?

Because Ball started those as well, and we only let in one goal in those 3.

kb thornliebank
28-03-2016, 17:06
The philosophy is to score more goals than the opponent.

I'd rather see 4-3 losing bad goals than 1-0 with a watertight defence.

I know that sounds a bit naive but I'm sure our defence will also cope better when tested by better teams on a regular basis.

cav
28-03-2016, 17:13
While that would be nice you have to consider the cost. Unless McParland can unearth a gem, a seasoned defender who is comfortable with the ball starts to become expensive in terms of transfer AND wages.

Maybe the management are planning to do just that, but i suspect they intend to stick with Kiernan and Wilson. Develop your own instead of buying the finished product. It is after all, the kind of philosophy many of us wanted.

We need a bosman who's willing to come for ten grand a week tops,not an easy task to get quality in.But I do think we could get better than what we currently have,given McParland's reputation.Failing that,a loan deal might be the way to go.

If we go into next season with Kiernan and Wilson as first choice CB's we will take a few beatings and the gaffer will be put under heavy pressure-he's too smart to let that happen imo.

CaptainCourageous
28-03-2016, 17:13
The philosophy is to score more goals than the opponent.



Well our goal/chances created ratio had better improve next season.

We've missed far too many chances this season - and being the top scorers in the league doesn't hide that.

We have to be more clinical. Fact!

Oduwa
28-03-2016, 18:24
Is a sweeper even a thing now?

Dunantblue
28-03-2016, 18:28
Well our goal/chances created ratio had better improve next season.

We've missed far too many chances this season - and being the top scorers in the league doesn't hide that.

We have to be more clinical. Fact!

I hold firmly to the view that this is a bigger issue than our defence.

Laudo
28-03-2016, 19:02
Is a sweeper even a thing now?

I think you can comfortably refer to a defensive midfielder as a sweeper.
You say tomatoes .......

Laudo
28-03-2016, 19:05
The philosophy is to score more goals than the opponent.

I'd rather see 4-3 losing bad goals than 1-0 with a watertight defence.

I know that sounds a bit naive but I'm sure our defence will also cope better when tested by better teams on a regular basis.
Totally agree with your sentiment, however, a few potential tankings down the line and goals scored won't matter a jot.
Not one.

GaryBolan
28-03-2016, 19:07
Someone like Cuellar would be absolutely perfect. (Not suggesting Cuellar himself as he's 34) We need a reliable defender who does the basics reliably week after week.

The stats flatter our defence, they are rarely tested in games and often when they are they look all over the place. Teams in the premiership will punish us if we don't tighten up at the back.

shotasboots
28-03-2016, 20:06
We need a couple of older heads at the back imo. The current two just don't cut it and I don't see them getting better next season.

ontheline
29-03-2016, 00:43
Rather than a defensive midfielder?

The stats may prove me wrong, but it seems to me we hardly ever catch opposition strikers offside...if this is the case, why not employ someone in a sweeper role who can clean up behind the 2 centre halfs rather than a defensive midfielder, who if beaten still leaves the back 2 exposed.

Would also provide cover for the full backs going forward.

If you need someone to clean up for your centre halfs.
Your centre halfs aren't good enough.

ontheline
29-03-2016, 00:48
We should try what Barcelona do from time to time, and Dortmund did a few years back...PSG also try it at home.

Basically you play your centre backs vertically rather than horizontally...front player man marks their lone striker, and the partner is deeper to sweep up ball when it breaks. It can work very well against teams with one striker, and sweeper can also start moves.

3 at back wouldn't suit us as well.

Always been my preferred style. The offside is much easier to play, it only takes one man to step rather than the whole line.

wilso10
29-03-2016, 01:08
In the last two games we have held 2 and 3 goal winning margins and then switched off as if the game was already won, our concentration and intensity levels need to run for 90 minutes.